IRC log of schemata-discussion on 2024-03-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/03/12-schemata-discussion-irc

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RRSAgent, do not leave

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RRSAgent, make logs public

12:09:57 [tpac-breakout-bot]

Meeting: Schemata Discussion - Follow up from TPAC23

12:09:57 [tpac-breakout-bot]

Chair: Ege Korkan

12:09:57 [tpac-breakout-bot]

Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/breakouts-day-2024/issues/15

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Zakim, clear agenda

12:09:57 [Zakim]

agenda cleared

12:09:57 [tpac-breakout-bot]

Zakim, agenda+ Pick a scribe

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agendum 1 added

12:09:58 [tpac-breakout-bot]

Zakim, agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy

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agendum 2 added

12:09:59 [tpac-breakout-bot]

Zakim, agenda+ Goal of this session

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agendum 3 added

12:09:59 [tpac-breakout-bot]

Zakim, agenda+ Discussion

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agendum 4 added

12:10:00 [tpac-breakout-bot]

Zakim, agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues

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agendum 5 added

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12:13:55 [tidoust]

tidoust has changed the topic to: Breakout: Schemata Discussion - Follow up from TPAC23 - Kora - 14:00-15:00 UTC

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scribenick: JKRhb

13:59:55 [ivan]

present+

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14:00:27 [kaz]

meeting: Schemata Discussion - Follow up from TPAC23

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14:01:37 [kaz]

present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Ege_Korkan, Marcel_Otto, Peter_Bruhn_Andersen, Alexandre_Bertails, Ivan_Herman, J-Y_Rossi, Jan_Romann, Klaus_Hartke, Michael_McCool, Octavian_Nadolu, Tomoaki_Mizushima, Christian_Glomb

14:01:54 [kaz]

present+ Vladmir_Alexiev

14:02:08 [kaz]

rrsagent, make log public

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rrsagent, draft minutes

14:02:13 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/12-schemata-discussion-minutes.html kaz

14:02:20 [JKRhb]

topic: Intro

14:02:21 [JKRhb]

ek: We can start

14:02:21 [Octavian_Nadolu]

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14:02:24 [JKRhb]

... welcome everyone

14:02:35 [ktoumura_]

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14:02:35 [pebran]

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14:02:38 [JKRhb]

... session is called Schemata Follow Up from TPAC2023

14:02:41 [Tomo]

present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima

14:02:50 [marcelotto]

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14:02:53 [JKRhb]

... Jan is taking minutes

14:03:00 [JKRhb]

... will skip the introduction round

14:03:09 [McCool]

present+

14:03:17 [VladimirAlexiev_]

VladimirAlexiev_ has joined #schemata-discussion

14:03:20 [JKRhb]

... due to large turnout, please introduce yourself before speaking

14:03:23 [McCool]

present+ Michael_McCool

14:03:28 [kaz]

present+ Thomas_Wehr

14:03:45 [kaz]

present+ Kunihiko_Toumura

14:03:47 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:03:48 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/12-schemata-discussion-minutes.html kaz

14:04:11 [JKRhb]

... meetings are under two polices: Antitrust and competition policy, encourage competition, furthermore we encourage a good work environment

14:04:30 [JKRhb]

... context is to share experience and find a place within W3C for discussion

14:04:47 [JKRhb]

... required background is some knowledge of SHACL and JSON-LD

14:04:51 [JKRhb]

topic: Presentation

14:04:52 [VladimirAlexiev_]

present+ Vladimir Alexiev

14:05:19 [JKRhb]

ek: Maybe we have met before, we have hosted a session with Pierre-Antoine before at TPAC

14:05:22 [betehess]

new

14:05:26 [marcelotto]

new

14:05:28 [VladimirAlexiev_]

new

14:05:32 [pebran]

new

14:05:33 [JKRhb]

... if you haven't been there, please write "new" into the IRC

14:05:42 [kaz]

present+ Ben_Hutton, Dorthe_Arndt

14:05:43 [JKRhb]

... however, I also prepared a brief intro

14:05:53 [JKRhb]

... there a few new people here, I see

14:06:23 [JKRhb]

ek: We have slides from previous sessions, which you can look at

14:06:39 [doerthe]

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14:06:57 [JKRhb]

ek: As quick summary, you have different kinds of schema approaches, and if you have a specification that uses different concepts, it becomes hard to manage

14:07:17 [JKRhb]

... in WoT TD, for example, we have the spec document itself

14:07:20 [JKRhb]

... ontology documents

14:07:24 [JKRhb]

... SHACL shapes

14:07:28 [JKRhb]

... JSON Schema files

14:07:38 [JKRhb]

... type and class definitions in TypeScript

14:07:43 [JKRhb]

... tests and examples

14:07:54 [JKRhb]

... all need to be managed, updated and published

14:08:15 [JKRhb]

... we have some tooling, but we still have to do some manual work

14:08:37 [JKRhb]

... soon, we will also have a registry for Binding Documents, where authors will also face these issues

14:08:52 [JKRhb]

ek: Previous presentations were given by Chris Mungell and @@@

14:08:59 [VladimirAlexiev_]

see https://github.com/json-ld/yaml-ld/issues/19 for more "polyglot modeling" approaches/frameworks

14:09:14 [JKRhb]

ek: The work so far included an analysis by the WoT WG

14:09:26 [JKRhb]

... concerning versioning, packaging, and serving resources

14:09:46 [JKRhb]

... we can discuss how to continue this in the last 10 minutes of this slot

14:10:06 [JKRhb]

ek: Mahda did most of the work for this presentation actually, but she is currently not available

14:10:16 [JKRhb]

... all resources are available on GitHub

14:10:33 [kaz]

present+ David

14:10:46 [JKRhb]

ek: So far, we were creating a very complicated diagram summarizing the very complicated process that has to be done with every PR

14:10:51 [kaz]

present+ Dominik_Tomaszuk, Elodie_Thieblin

14:11:02 [JKRhb]

... for example, the JSON Schema needs to be updated or rendering needs to be triggered

14:11:13 [JKRhb]

... we are not very proud of it, it is quite messy

14:11:28 [JKRhb]

ek: We have then been looking into alternative tooling to make our lives easier

14:11:48 [JKRhb]

... and collected metrics and other aspects for comparison in a table

14:12:12 [JKRhb]

... for example, the handling of different value representations, inheritance, or unknown object keys

14:12:45 [JKRhb]

... at the moment, we are in favor of using LinkML in the future, but we have not decided yet and this is not is the topic of this session

14:12:59 [JKRhb]

... but we want to collect feedback from the tool authors themselves

14:13:12 [JKRhb]

... as Vladimir Alexiev has already done, thank you for that

14:13:32 [JKRhb]

... we want to update our requirements accordingly, to make sure that the process is transparent

14:13:43 [JKRhb]

... any questions so far regarding the analysis or the diagram?

14:13:48 [JKRhb]

No questions so far

14:13:57 [dezell]

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14:14:07 [JKRhb]

ek: If you have any questions, then please join the IRC and write "q+"

14:14:20 [JKRhb]

ek: So we have all of these resources, but there is still a missing point

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14:14:33 [dezell]

present+ David_Ezell

14:14:39 [JKRhb]

... so in the WoT WG, we have a repo with GitHub pages available

14:14:54 [JKRhb]

... after publishing, the W3C team contact adjusts the redirection

14:14:57 [ethieblin]

present+ elodie.thieblin

14:15:12 [JKRhb]

... in general, you can consider this uploading software to a web server

14:15:22 [JKRhb]

... and there is no standardized way to handle this

14:15:26 [VladimirAlexiev_]

I've seen many communities that face the same problem: electrical CIM, traceability in trade, GS1 EPCIS in logistics, ACORD in insurance, IFC in AECO etc etc

14:15:39 [JKRhb]

... and this process is too slow for our release cycle

14:15:44 [JKRhb]

ek: Can we do better?

14:15:52 [JKRhb]

... we have a PR that tries to address this

14:16:12 [JKRhb]

... we need better tooling, could rely on package managers

14:16:30 [JKRhb]

... Klaus Hartke has done some work of using npm for this kind of thing

14:16:35 [VladimirAlexiev_]

For the Traceability community, I asked them to consider LinkML: https://github.com/w3c-ccg/traceability-vocab/issues/295

14:17:06 [JKRhb]

... in the JSON Schema world they are using custom registries (?)

14:17:18 [JKRhb]

ek: So this finishes the summary for now

14:17:23 [VladimirAlexiev_]

More importantly, I wrote up some draft Requirements for such tooling: https://github.com/w3c-ccg/traceability-vocab/issues/296. This could complement the comparison table that WoT showed

14:17:26 [JKRhb]

... wanted to keep it brief

14:17:28 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:17:29 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/12-schemata-discussion-minutes.html kaz

14:17:47 [JKRhb]

... in the TPAC 2023 discussion, there was the question of where the discussion should continue

14:17:52 [kaz]

q+

14:18:01 [JKRhb]

... not necessarily needed to standardize something like LinkML

14:18:26 [Ege]

q?

14:18:42 [JKRhb]

... but there needs to be some process or best practices in my opinion, if anyone has other thoughts, please make a comment

14:18:50 [JKRhb]

... any questions?

14:18:54 [Ege]

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/193OFcFaxD0GqrRuOggwZe5eorgL1C1Epe2cAYN3JEkk/edit?usp=sharing

14:19:11 [JKRhb]

kaz: A comment regarding logistics: Please paste the link of the slides into the IRC

14:19:39 [JKRhb]

... another comment: please list the important questions in the slides

14:19:47 [JKRhb]

... like tooling, versioning, and so on

14:20:01 [JKRhb]

ek: (Updates the slides)

14:20:10 [kaz]

i|Maybe we have met|-> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/193OFcFaxD0GqrRuOggwZe5eorgL1C1Epe2cAYN3JEkk/edit?usp=sharing Slides|

14:20:13 [JKRhb]

... if there are any points, we can categorize them accordingly

14:20:14 [VladimirAlexiev_]

.. communities: also AAS (industrial Digital Twins, i.e. Industry 4.0 / RAMI)

14:20:25 [JKRhb]

... in the IRC, there were some comments by Vladimir

14:20:36 [JKRhb]

... saying, that others have been suffering the same issues?

14:20:55 [JKRhb]

va: I have been seeing the same issues in other communities as well

14:21:16 [JKRhb]

... many communities want to use both JSON Schema and JSON-LD, and they need to be in sync

14:21:32 [JKRhb]

... in some cases, they want to borrow schemas from other people and mix and match them

14:21:51 [JKRhb]

... in some cases, the results are mixed, in others they are very bad

14:22:00 [JKRhb]

... as many ontologies come with their own baggage

14:22:16 [JKRhb]

... also difficult if you are relying on a schema in XML

14:22:50 [JKRhb]

va: In particular the Trade Transparency group has been working on related topics

14:23:09 [JKRhb]

... find this very interesting to see how semantic technologies spread into these communities

14:23:17 [JKRhb]

... on the other hand, these people need some help

14:23:30 [JKRhb]

... need guidance how to use RDF properly

14:24:00 [JKRhb]

... even simple things, how to model triples with literals (?)

14:24:37 [JKRhb]

... in RDF, we have infinite precision, in the case of conventional JSON numbers, we don't

14:24:39 [betehess]

q+

14:24:46 [kaz]

q-

14:24:51 [JKRhb]

va: The importance of this discussion is very very high

14:25:00 [JKRhb]

... question how to get RDF into more communities

14:25:13 [JKRhb]

... that try to use it, but don't get it right yet

14:25:29 [JKRhb]

... question how W3C can help these communities

14:25:54 [JKRhb]

ek: Thank you for your comments, tried to update the presentation with the links form the minutes

14:26:01 [Ege]

q?

14:26:07 [VladimirAlexiev_]

The import is: how can the sem web community help other data communities "graduate" into linked data?

14:26:15 [JKRhb]

... could you elaborate on the Trade Transparency group?

14:26:17 [JKRhb]

va: Will do

14:26:28 [JKRhb]

ab: Quick introduction:

14:26:36 [JKRhb]

... work at Netflix on an ontology service

14:26:54 [JKRhb]

... this group is exactly discussing what we are trying to solve

14:27:11 [JKRhb]

... try to combine schemas with ontologies (?)

14:27:21 [JKRhb]

... we tried using SHACL, has been working okay so far

14:27:42 [JKRhb]

... issue is that people need to learn RDF and SHACL, which is difficult

14:27:57 [VladimirAlexiev_]

Another example: AAS is a very important spec in Industrial IoT. But they have fundamental issues that go against the Web Architecture, eg https://github.com/admin-shell-io/aas-specs/issues/383. See https://github.com/admin-shell-io/aas-specs/issues/384 for a list of issues

14:27:57 [JKRhb]

... we have a problem of discovery, how to discover ontologies?

14:28:15 [JKRhb]

... question how to combine schemas and ontologies

14:28:43 [JKRhb]

... very much interested in talking to people, standardization, wich we would like to see at some point

14:28:49 [JKRhb]

s/wich/which/

14:29:18 [JKRhb]

ek: Thank you, you've mentioned that you get a lot questions regarding SHACL, do you have problems with adaption?

14:29:32 [JKRhb]

ab: Problem is that SHACL is way too powerful

14:29:42 [JKRhb]

... difficult to map to a schema

14:30:11 [JKRhb]

... tried to create a subset of SHACL that is powerful enough to write meaningful ontologies which you can then project onto GraphQL for example

14:30:17 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:30:19 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/12-schemata-discussion-minutes.html kaz

14:30:25 [JKRhb]

ek: I think I can relate a bit with that

14:30:25 [VladimirAlexiev_]

Another example: the Allotrope community (lab equipment measurements). It is very active and does things right. They use JSON-LD in nice ways

14:30:50 [JKRhb]

... I think a main problem is that @@@

14:31:00 [Ege]

q?

14:31:05 [JKRhb]

... they have trouble seeing the benefit of switching

14:31:09 [betehess]

q-

14:31:28 [JKRhb]

ek: There has been some discussion on standardization or not

14:31:38 [JKRhb]

... in my point of view, there wasn't the need yet

14:31:47 [JKRhb]

... question: What should be standardized?

14:32:05 [JKRhb]

... some aspects from the table could be standardized, but the tools are already quite stable already

14:32:22 [JKRhb]

... not sure about the benefits, other that it would give more credibility

14:32:23 [betehess]

q+

14:32:50 [JKRhb]

ab: I consider the main issue with this slide related to standardization

14:33:07 [VladimirAlexiev_]

q+

14:33:20 [JKRhb]

... how to we make sure that our projection to GraphQL, for example, is correct and can be injected into an ontology?

14:33:30 [ivan]

q+

14:33:39 [ivan]

ack betehess

14:33:50 [JKRhb]

ek: From my point of view, it is mostly a tooling question, with LinkML you could go to the other representations

14:34:08 [JKRhb]

ab: Yeah, for of people it would be about tooling, for us it would be about meaning

14:34:20 [JKRhb]

ek: Guaranteeing that there is no information loss?

14:34:35 [Ege]

q?

14:34:36 [JKRhb]

ab: Yeah, and the information is represented correctly

14:35:06 [JKRhb]

va: I feel very much all of the questions that have been raised as we are facing similar issues

14:35:41 [JKRhb]

... I tried to create a community for canonical mapping between SHACL and RDF(?)

14:35:58 [ivan]

s/RDF(?)/Shex/

14:35:59 [JKRhb]

... SHACL is very useful to build UIs

14:37:37 [JKRhb]

... so the question is how to use most common subset of SHACL. How to use with GraphQL and translate to SPARQL and use certain more complex joins

14:38:03 [JKRhb]

... very important how to transform without losing meaning

14:38:11 [betehess]

+1 on being lossless. That's our main concern here at Netflix.

14:38:26 [JKRhb]

ek: Just one point

14:38:42 [JKRhb]

... you've mentioned that there are GraphQL implementation that use RDF?

14:38:52 [JKRhb]

... could you repeat that?

14:38:56 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:38:57 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/12-schemata-discussion-minutes.html kaz

14:39:04 [Ege]

q?

14:39:04 [Ege]

ack v

14:39:11 [VladimirAlexiev_]

GraphQL implementations over RDF, and benchmarks (there's LinGBM and a couple smaller ones): https://www.zotero.org/groups/5393345/semantic_graphql

14:39:12 [JKRhb]

va: I have Zotero library with resources regarding this topic, I will send you a link

14:39:25 [JKRhb]

ih: I have seen similar problems before

14:39:29 [VladimirAlexiev_]

q-

14:39:46 [JKRhb]

... I am currently participating in the @@@ WG, there have been similar issues

14:40:21 [JKRhb]

... Pierre-Antoine mentioned similar issues, there are slight differences between different languages, making it hard to convert

14:40:38 [JKRhb]

... one thing we've seen was that SHACL and shex cannot model dataset

14:40:43 [kaz]

s/@@@ WG/Verifiable Credentials WG/

14:41:01 [VladimirAlexiev_]

Holger Knublauch is convening a SHACL 1.2 CG that should address named-graphs

14:41:17 [JKRhb]

... typical problems, can't imagine what we will face with the introduction of RDF 1.2

14:41:49 [JKRhb]

ih: What I am critical of is the problems JSON-LD introduces

14:42:13 [JKRhb]

... as it both sold as a serialization of RDF but also as plain JSON

14:42:26 [JKRhb]

... inherit problem of JSON-LD, not sure how to solve it

14:42:51 [JKRhb]

... one thing I've seen in communities was a misunderstanding of JSON-LD context files

14:43:01 [Ege]

q?

14:43:11 [JKRhb]

... as context files can be seen as a glorified mapping file

14:43:14 [betehess]

q+

14:43:16 [VladimirAlexiev_]

"@context" is not an ontology, and it is not a schema: it's only a mapping from JSON to ontology terms

14:43:58 [JKRhb]

... we need to work on making these discrepancies disappear, but I am not really optimistic, as all of these schematas are not the same

14:44:18 [JKRhb]

... should not create yet another standard (in the XKCD sense)

14:44:41 [JKRhb]

... but we need to be aware of the discrepancies before we can go to the tools

14:45:08 [JKRhb]

ek: Thank you, very good points, the double nature of JSON-LD is exactly why we are facing these kinds of problems

14:45:15 [Ege]

q?

14:45:18 [JKRhb]

ih: I have seen this in many communities before

14:45:24 [ivan]

ack ivan

14:45:27 [ivan]

ack betehess

14:45:31 [JKRhb]

ab: I agree so much with what Ivan just said

14:45:42 [JKRhb]

... we are facing the same problems at Netflix

14:46:02 [JKRhb]

... JSON-LD was not a problem so far, everyone is using Turtle and that is working as expected

14:46:37 [JKRhb]

... the lack of definition of issues has been an issue, question how to import an asset (?)

14:47:18 [JKRhb]

... one aspect that we've noticed that we can always define a SHACL shape and achieve what you want to do, also with fundamental things

14:47:29 [Ege]

q?

14:47:43 [JKRhb]

... want to publish something in that regard soon, SHACL is very good for this kind of thing in our experience

14:48:28 [McCool]

sorry, ntd

14:48:41 [JKRhb]

ek: In my experience, there is some tooling to help us if we want to go down the route of using SHACL

14:49:01 [JKRhb]

topic: Check-out

14:49:03 [JKRhb]

ek: Now we should fill out the check-out slides

14:49:24 [JKRhb]

... I think one consensus was that this is an annoying problem

14:49:48 [JKRhb]

... and is relevant for different communities (not only WoT)

14:49:55 [JKRhb]

... not sure about the next steps

14:50:05 [JKRhb]

... should we create a CG or mailing list?

14:50:11 [ivan]

q+

14:50:15 [JKRhb]

... what can we do to work on this?

14:50:48 [JKRhb]

ih: What I felt is to try to list, gather, categorize the problems that make these tools so difficult

14:51:12 [JKRhb]

... for example datasets, as Alexandre mentioned, or RDF 1.2 or literals

14:51:23 [JKRhb]

... we need to have a clear view of the problem space

14:52:00 [JKRhb]

... I have the impression that we should not jump into creating new tools, we should first understand the problem, step up

14:52:05 [JKRhb]

s/up/back/

14:52:11 [JKRhb]

ek: Agree with that

14:52:23 [JKRhb]

... what should the next step be then?

14:52:55 [JKRhb]

va: I think we should begin with the UCR

14:53:05 [JKRhb]

... and then begin with SHACL vs Shex

14:53:19 [JKRhb]

... creating mapping, then see what is missing

14:53:46 [JKRhb]

... similar with GraphQL, if W3C wants to create a CG working on a mapping then this could happen

14:54:11 [JKRhb]

... not going to solve all problems, as there will always be differences

14:54:18 [kaz_]

kaz_ has joined #schemata-discussion

14:54:30 [kaz_]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:54:31 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/12-schemata-discussion-minutes.html kaz_

14:54:54 [JKRhb]

... what do you do in case of a discrepancy? Maybe best practices are enough, not necessarily need to create a new specification

14:55:17 [JKRhb]

... the SHACL 1.2 CG is a good approach

14:55:42 [kaz_]

q+

14:55:45 [JKRhb]

... @@@

14:55:57 [Ege]

q?

14:56:13 [JKRhb]

... so first focus on UCR and then create focus groups to start working on the individual problems

14:56:35 [JKRhb]

ek: Added creating the catalog to the slides

14:57:01 [JKRhb]

kaz: I basically agree with Ivan and Vladimir

14:57:25 [JKRhb]

... we should clarify requirements, what the problem is, then see what solution would fit

14:57:46 [JKRhb]

ek: I think there is a question whose requirements it is?

14:58:05 [JKRhb]

kaz: A better word might be expections

14:58:28 [JKRhb]

ek: There is a question of ownership, not only the WoT WG is involved

14:58:31 [VladimirAlexiev_]

yes: 1. Catalog the problems/features/questions/issues (UCR), 2. focus CGs to work out specific issues: a) SHEX-SHACL mapping, b) RDF-GraphQL best practices, c) maybe YAML/YAML-LD syntax for mixing schemata approaches (JSON Schema and JSONLD Context are first candidates)

14:58:58 [JKRhb]

kaz: As I mentioned, this is related to Ivan's comments, we should clarify and categorize problems

14:59:17 [JKRhb]

... and then see how they relate to requirements

14:59:39 [JKRhb]

... WoT WG should clarify its own requirements, then we can contact the others again

14:59:46 [VladimirAlexiev_]

4. Dissemination/proliferation into various communities. Because these are problems that affect widely different communities, it will not be easy to reach/evangelize to them

15:00:59 [JKRhb]

ek: Question is how the individual groups will form, as I am not part of the groups mentioned in the discussion

15:01:06 [kaz_]

s/As I mentioned, this is related to/As I mentioned at the beginning of this session, and similar to/

15:01:09 [kaz_]

rrsagent, draft minutes

15:01:11 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/12-schemata-discussion-minutes.html kaz_

15:01:26 [JKRhb]

... if there is not going to be a new CG, then each group will first have to work on its own

15:01:55 [VladimirAlexiev_]

0. Catalog of tools/practices. I'd be ecstatic if a single tool (eg LinkML) can solve the problems, but I'm doubtful. So we can borrow from the "KGC" CG (who work on RDB/JSON/XML mapping tools, extending R2RML and RML): features from one tool are borrowed as requirements for another

15:02:01 [JKRhb]

... (adds an action item to the slides that each person notes the problems and should do dissemination)

15:02:16 [JKRhb]

... that concludes our session

15:02:34 [kaz_]

[adjourned]

15:02:35 [kaz_]

rrsagent, draft minutes

15:02:37 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/12-schemata-discussion-minutes.html kaz_

17:26:47 [tidoust]

tidoust has joined #schemata-discussion

20:23:47 [tidoust]

RRSAgent, bye

20:23:47 [RRSAgent]

I see no action items