IRC log of rwi on 2024-03-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/03/12-rwi-irc
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RRSAgent, do not leave
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RRSAgent, make logs public
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Meeting: Building Consensus on the Role of Real World Identities on the Web
11:50:50 [tpac-breakout-bot]
Chair: Martin Thomson, Marcos Caceres
11:50:50 [tpac-breakout-bot]
Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/breakouts-day-2024/issues/12
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Zakim, clear agenda
11:50:51 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
11:50:51 [tpac-breakout-bot]
Zakim, agenda+ Pick a scribe
11:50:52 [Zakim]
agendum 1 added
11:50:52 [tpac-breakout-bot]
Zakim, agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy
11:50:52 [Zakim]
agendum 2 added
11:50:52 [tpac-breakout-bot]
Zakim, agenda+ Goal of this session
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agendum 3 added
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Zakim, agenda+ Discussion
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agendum 4 added
11:50:54 [tpac-breakout-bot]
Zakim, agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues
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agendum 5 added
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12:03:24 [marcosc]
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tidoust has changed the topic to: Breakout: Building Consensus on the Role of Real World Identities on the Web - Ukulele - 13:00-14:00 UTC
12:25:09 [hire-a-geek]
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12:25:36 [hire-a-geek]
Joining early to say hello to like minded people. Talk to you all real soon!
12:52:55 [dom]
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12:56:34 [hire-a-geek]
Hey Dom
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present+
13:00:07 [Ian]
present+
13:00:07 [mt]
present+
13:00:39 [ivan]
present+
13:01:17 [dom]
Present+
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13:02:46 [Ian]
zakim, take up item 1
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agendum 1 -- Pick a scribe -- taken up [from tpac-breakout-bot]
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present+
13:02:59 [cpn]
present+ Chris_Needham
13:03:01 [marcosc]
present+
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present+ Coralie
13:03:08 [npdoty]
present+
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present+
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present+
13:03:34 [kdenhartog]
present+
13:03:35 [robin]
present+
13:03:40 [DKA]
present+ Dan_Appelquist
13:03:46 [dom]
scribe+
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13:04:00 [Ian]
zakim, close item 1
13:04:00 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Pick a scribe, closed
13:04:00 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
13:04:00 [Zakim]
2. Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy [from tpac-breakout-bot]
13:04:10 [Ian]
zakim, take up item 2
13:04:10 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy -- taken up [from tpac-breakout-bot]
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-> https://www.w3.org/policies/code-of-conduct/ CEPC
13:04:41 [Ian]
zakim, close item 2
13:04:41 [Zakim]
agendum 2, Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy, closed
13:04:42 [dom]
[this session is not recorded]
13:04:43 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
13:04:43 [Zakim]
3. Goal of this session [from tpac-breakout-bot]
13:04:44 [mt]
sleep is important for your health people
13:04:45 [Ian]
zakim, take up item 3
13:04:45 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- Goal of this session -- taken up [from tpac-breakout-bot]
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Goal from the description: "Work toward a consensus view of what the role of Real World Identity should be on the Web in the next 5-10 years."
13:06:05 [andreubotella]
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13:06:05 [mt]
That was largely Ben's work. Full credit where it is due.
13:06:15 [dom]
mt: part of the point of this exercise is to gather to think what the problem is and where the problem is likely to take us, what we should avoid, what we should strengthen
13:06:19 [wseltzer]
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13:06:33 [dom]
... it's broad and open discussion we're unlikely to cover fully, more of a starting point
13:06:40 [unextro]
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13:06:43 [dom]
... there is active work in W3C and other fora on this very topic
13:06:52 [dom]
... some of it is relatively advanced
13:07:36 [dom]
... which people may feel worried about
13:07:38 [dom]
... My own observations: your use of your own personal idenitty on-line is something we cherish and the flexibility it affords e.g. in terms of privacy
13:07:57 [dom]
... allowing people to present themselves on-line the way they choose is a real advantage the Web has opened up
13:08:17 [dom]
... very different from the expectations e.g. in places where government-id get asked or required
13:08:49 [dom]
... we're looking at the intersection of these two worlds - a possibly small intersection that we need to manage carefully
13:09:30 [kdenhartog]
q+
13:09:30 [dom]
Marcos: some of us are focused on the technological aspect of this, what's already available in some OS - important to take a step back and think about the role of the Web in this
13:09:47 [dom]
mt: we're at an interesting point in terms of some of the technological options available to us
13:10:02 [dom]
... e.g. cryptographic techniques that weren't available to us 10 years ago that opens up new opportunities
13:10:16 [rbyers]
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13:10:20 [dom]
... but I suggest we focus on use cases and the important characteristics we want to preserve
13:10:54 [dom]
kdenhartog: I spent 5 years working on that technology; former editor of the VC WG, and now in browser land - so with a fairly unique perspective
13:11:06 [dom]
... my summary: this is coming, the question is what it is going to look like?
13:11:10 [cwilso]
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13:11:17 [cwilso]
present+
13:11:17 [dom]
... with AI and KYC checks being by-passed
13:11:25 [mt]
q?
13:11:43 [dom]
... we don't want to break down long-held guarantees on the Web, privacy guarantees
13:11:53 [timcappalli_]
q+
13:11:54 [dom]
... with the risks associated to data leaks
13:11:56 [plh]
q+
13:12:00 [dbaron]
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13:12:03 [dom]
... there are legitimate use cases - but how do we limit them?
13:12:10 [dom]
mt: what limitations do you think we should examine?
13:12:19 [marcosc]
q+ Hicham
13:12:33 [npdoty]
q+ on risks and appropriate use cases
13:12:34 [dom]
kdenhartog: one of the main ones that I see: as data becomes more available, it gets used more
13:12:57 [dom]
... my main concern is that as these 3rd-party credentials become available on-line digitally, more and more sites start to take advantage of them
13:13:00 [mt]
kyle is referring to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox
13:13:23 [dbaron]
Present+
13:13:24 [dom]
... e.g. starting with liquor sales, then social media identity check against disinformation,
13:13:30 [rbyers]
Present+
13:13:30 [Ian]
q?
13:13:54 [dom]
... then enforcement on browser/wallets/hardware guarantees leading to web environment integrity checks to guarantee the credential robustness
13:14:08 [dom]
... figuring where to draw that line is what I'm interested in
13:14:13 [Ian]
ack kden
13:14:17 [Ian]
ack timc
13:14:24 [npdoty]
I'm also hearing concerns about DRM being a sort of side effect of more confident presentation of identity credentials remotely
13:14:25 [dom]
timcappalli_: from Okta, driving the WICG work item on the topic
13:14:42 [wseltzer]
q+
13:14:42 [dom]
... Top 4 issues: overdisclosure through social engineering
13:14:51 [DKA]
#dataminimization
13:14:55 [dom]
... users being restricted from using their wallet identity of their choice
13:15:05 [dom]
... gov identity being forced for sign-in
13:15:20 [dom]
... wallets governance (browser, platform)
13:15:38 [plh]
--> https://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/ip/marrakesh/ Marrakesh Treaty to Facilitate Access to Published Works for Persons Who Are Blind, Visually Impaired or Otherwise Print Disabled
13:15:45 [morimori]
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13:16:08 [dom]
plh: in terms of use cases, implementation of the Marrakesh treaty to provide copyright exemption for people with disability
13:16:17 [dom]
... intersection of identity and credential
13:16:53 [dom]
hicham: standards engineering working on identity in different organizations (from Apple)
13:17:23 [dom]
... we all agree it's complicated; as we navigate the complex landscape of online identity verification, it's essential to adopt a cautious adaptive approach
13:17:25 [marie]
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13:17:40 [dom]
... starting with restrictive measures that we carefully and iteratively fine-tune
13:17:40 [mt]
q?
13:17:48 [mt]
ack plh
13:17:50 [marie]
present+
13:17:51 [mt]
ack Hicham
13:18:22 [dom]
... allowing fair and legitimate requests, detecting over-request/over-burdening the user, where the browser has a significant role to play
13:18:39 [dom]
... finding the balance between streamlining the identity verification process and protecting the user
13:18:40 [Ian]
[Tim Cappalli's list of concerns typed into zoom chat: Users being tricked into over disclosure (e.g. only an age predicate is needed)
13:18:40 [Ian]
Users being restricted from using identity wallets of their choice
13:18:40 [Ian]
Government identity documents being used for sign in
13:18:40 [Ian]
Wallets maintaining allowlists of verifiers (beyond abuse mitigations)]
13:18:46 [ivan]
ack npdoty
13:18:46 [Zakim]
npdoty, you wanted to comment on risks and appropriate use cases
13:19:13 [dom]
npdoty: the privacy concerns have been discussed and I share those: both overcollection and undermining the tracking protection
13:19:44 [dom]
... but this is an area that introduces significant concerns about free expression, about limiting who can access information
13:20:04 [dom]
... e.g. what children can access (e.g. LBGTQ, reproductive health issues)
13:20:23 [kdenhartog]
q+
13:20:27 [rbyers]
q+
13:20:33 [DKA]
+1 to npdoty
13:20:35 [dom]
... other risks of exclusion for people who cannot get some type of credential (because of immigration status, country of origin, level of technology or wealth)
13:20:51 [dom]
... we need to think of these as a new class of risks
13:21:07 [dom]
... thinking about the appropriate and inappropriate use cases
13:21:24 [DKA]
Unintended Consequences
13:21:43 [npdoty]
https://github.com/w3cping/credential-considerations/blob/main/credentials-considerations.md
13:21:56 [dom]
npdoty: the PING draft above lists some of these risks
13:22:17 [DKA]
q?
13:22:37 [DKA]
q+
13:22:39 [dom]
mt: I've heard the advice of "taking it slow" from a number of people
13:23:06 [npdoty]
Nick Doty, Center for Democracy & Technology, co-chair W3C Privacy Interest Group (PING)
13:23:21 [mt]
ack wseltzer
13:23:23 [dom]
wseltzer: in addition to many of the already raised considerations, I would add the issuance of identity credentials as very heavily political - governments-backed identity credentials
13:23:40 [dom]
... governments claim exclusive right on citizenship claims
13:23:46 [dom]
s/gov/some gov/
13:24:13 [dom]
... we'll need to interface with a lot of different governments and political challenges if exposing government-backed stores of identity
13:24:21 [mt]
ack kdenhartog
13:24:22 [npdoty]
dom, I would welcome advice from issues in i18n/a11y on exclusion. I probably shouldn't say these things are entirely new, even if I expect that it is distinct in some ways
13:24:38 [dom]
kdenhartog: adding to that, governments are already moving on regulations on this
13:24:54 [dom]
... at least 5 to 10 states in the USA have legislation around providing digital credentials
13:24:55 [Hicham]
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13:25:01 [dom]
... so is the EU with eIDAS
13:25:18 [dom]
... the regulators are going to somewhat tie our hands - we'll need to find a good balance
13:25:43 [dom]
... previous similar examples around certificate authority management
13:25:59 [Ian]
-> https://blog.mozilla.org/netpolicy/2020/12/18/kazakhstan-root-2020/ Continuing to Protect our Users in Kazakhstan
13:26:13 [mt]
q?
13:27:00 [rbyers]
https://github.com/w3cping/credential-considerations/blob/main/risks.md
13:27:00 [dom]
rbyers: Rick Byers, engineering lead on Chrome involved in identity API recently
13:27:46 [dom]
... let's not fall on the engineer trap on our ability to control this - we're a piece of a puzzle; we have a role to play, but we don't get to decide
13:28:07 [dom]
... we DO have a huge opportunity to influence the discussion and empower decision makers to make well-informed decisions
13:28:27 [dom]
... we should push towards whta we think is the happy path, e.g. zero-knowledge proof, e.g. for age verification
13:28:42 [dom]
... for the riskier stuff, we should feel the responsibility to show more data and help interpret it
13:29:02 [dom]
... there are challenging trade-offs; let's not fool ourselves in figuring out the right answer without data
13:29:13 [npdoty]
I tend to think that the engineering trap is more often just providing the tools and abdicating responsibility about how it is used or misused
13:29:50 [dom]
... Google has an age verification system that asks users to take a picture of their government id
13:30:28 [kdenhartog]
To Rick's point, we can also look to recent history with COVID passes. There's likely some insight that we can look to there.
13:30:42 [dom]
... we've started instrumenting chrome to detect identification activity through openid; at the moment, very limited activity from eIDAS systems
13:30:47 [kdenhartog]
q+
13:30:56 [mt]
ack rbyers
13:30:58 [dom]
... I think that means there is still room to have an impact
13:31:15 [npdoty]
rbyers reported on instrumenting detection of use of custom schemes for mdoc or openid4vp
13:31:26 [dom]
mt: everything I'm hearing is telling me it's too late, so happy to hear otherwise
13:31:30 [mt]
ack DKA
13:31:38 [DKA]
STRINT workshop report https://www.w3.org/2014/strint/report.html
13:31:42 [dom]
DKA: the interplay between technologies and regulatory/policy makers
13:32:09 [dom]
... we had a workshop about 10 years ago about strengthening the internet against pervasive monitoring
13:32:19 [dom]
... in reaction to news around government monitoring
13:32:25 [marcosc]
q?
13:32:49 [dom]
... it started off with identifying pervasive monitoring as a threat to the internet
13:33:13 [dom]
... the W3C/IETF/IAB community came together and put a line in the sand, saying "this is not OK"
13:33:34 [dom]
... we need to work with regulators and policy makers, but we can also have an opinion
13:33:48 [mt]
ack kdenhartog
13:34:24 [Ian]
-> https://www.w3.org/Security/strong-authentication-and-identity-workshop/report.html See also report from 2018 workshop on authentication and strong identity
13:34:35 [dom]
kdenhartog: +1 on gathering data on this today
13:35:12 [dom]
mt: we probably need to look at the different use cases
13:35:32 [dom]
... age verification is interesting and thorny (with censorship adjacent applications)
13:36:05 [dom]
... the application of gov-id systems for @@@ management
13:36:13 [DKA]
q+
13:36:21 [mt]
s/@@@/fraud
13:36:23 [dom]
Zakim, mute robin
13:36:23 [Zakim]
sorry, dom, I can't do that anymore
13:36:46 [dom]
DKA: I want to make sure we solve use cases that really exist, that are helping people
13:36:59 [dom]
... not a technology solution to a non-problem
13:37:33 [dom]
... I've had to go through some of these tasks recently on-line, without any of the cryptographic magic
13:37:42 [mt]
?
13:37:43 [mt]
q?
13:37:46 [dom]
q+
13:37:53 [kdenhartog]
q+
13:38:04 [mt]
ack DKA
13:38:27 [rbyers]
q+
13:38:32 [dom]
marcosc: how did you feel about sending id pictures to these web sites?
13:38:38 [npdoty]
q+ on login and friction level of use cases
13:38:42 [koalie]
-> https://filigrane.beta.gouv.fr/ French gov "watermark" online gneeration
13:39:01 [dom]
DKA: I had to do this; this was end-to-end encrypted, on sites referenced by a trusted source
13:39:15 [koalie]
^^ for the use-case of needing to send copies of personal documents
13:39:35 [dom]
... is the marginal improvement we're talking about worth the risk? incl to marginalized community, to disenfranchise people, etc
13:39:49 [timcappalli_]
Top of mind ones: IDV for loans/mortgages, Age proofing for purchasing, Age proofing for content access, IDV for new employees, Employment verification to third parties, Education verification to third parties
13:40:11 [Ian]
scribenick: Ian
13:40:34 [Ian]
Dom: There are plenty of use cases; it's a matter of tradeoffs. Are the risks worth the benefits?
13:40:42 [Ian]
...I think we are missing the framework to make that assessment.
13:40:52 [Ian]
...what is our role in informing discussion of those tradeoffs?
13:41:16 [Ian]
...there are clearly opportunities for improvements to how this is done in the real world.
13:41:31 [Ian]
...the hard part is informing the ecosystem about risks and the expected value to be derived from any tech approaches.
13:41:47 [Ian]
...I think use cases should focus on the tradeoffs (and not simply what problem is being solved)
13:41:58 [Ian]
...that's where we can usefully help structure the discussion
13:42:00 [mt]
ack dom
13:42:04 [dom]
scribenick: dom
13:42:19 [ivan]
ack kdenhartog
13:42:36 [dom]
dom: high-insurance use cases typically need governance backed id
13:42:46 [dom]
... but this started from a data portability perspective
13:43:01 [dom]
... incl self certified credentials
13:43:13 [npdoty]
s/high-insurance/high-assurance/
13:43:17 [dom]
... this came with a lot of struggles, but there are interesting use cases that exist here
13:43:25 [dom]
... that's also part of TBL's vision behind SOLID
13:43:46 [cwilso]
s/dom:/kyle:/
13:44:08 [dom]
... in Web3 spaces, they've been exploring one-person/one-vote with pseudonimity - also a hard problem but worth exploring
13:44:16 [marcosc]
q+
13:44:48 [Ian]
ack rbyers
13:45:00 [dom]
rbyers: I used to feel pretty strongly when we were approached a few years ago on the question of exposing real world identity
13:45:14 [dom]
... eIDAS is changing this, and so are some of the US states regulation
13:46:00 [dom]
... if these regulations are going to push these workflows, I want us to make sure we make them work as safely and privacy-respectful as possible
13:46:37 [dom]
mt: I'm hearing harm minimization
13:46:38 [Ian]
zakim, close item 3
13:46:38 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Ian
13:47:03 [dom]
npdoty: I'm not trying to say we should not do this work, but rather that we should do it well
13:47:29 [robin]
q?
13:47:41 [dom]
... we're looking mostly at high-friction/low-frequency events: e.g. new job, gov benefits sign-up
13:47:41 [ivan]
ack npdoty
13:47:41 [Zakim]
npdoty, you wanted to comment on login and friction level of use cases
13:47:48 [robin]
q+ to talk about system vs use cases
13:48:06 [dom]
... this is not a case of reducing friction everywhere
13:48:32 [dom]
... e.g. pushing back on using it in the login context (vs passkeys)
13:49:11 [mt]
q+ to wrap up
13:49:23 [Ian]
zakim, close the queue
13:49:23 [Zakim]
ok, Ian, the speaker queue is closed
13:49:33 [Ian]
ack marcos
13:50:05 [npdoty]
I think regulators are also identifying use case regulation as important
13:50:14 [dom]
marcos: we use constrain this technology to as few and well-defined use cases as possible, since this is already scary enough as is
13:50:22 [Hicham]
travel use cases: Airlines, Visa requests, esta etc etc
13:50:41 [npdoty]
eIDAS, for example, doesn't envision that just any website at any time can ask for a govt credential, but rather that there needs to be an approved reason with justification
13:50:54 [dom]
... we should not widen its usages e.g. in autofill - just in scenarios where it's actually needed
13:51:04 [npdoty]
https://epicenter.works/en/content/eu-digital-identity-reform-the-good-bad-ugly-in-the-eidas-regulation discusses "Use Case Regulation"
13:51:04 [mt]
https://papersplease.org/wp/2024/03/08/us-passports-and-freedom-of-international-travel/ is relevant to travel cases
13:51:16 [kdenhartog]
If we intend to ship something I agree with you @marcos. I just more wanted to point out there exists ways to use this technology without framing this as only for high assurance credentials
13:51:18 [dom]
robin: we should start from the end system we want to have, à la STRINT
13:51:44 [dom]
... and find the use cases from that - to the risk of trying to solve too many use cases with this
13:51:52 [Ian]
q?
13:51:55 [Ian]
ack robin
13:51:55 [Zakim]
robin, you wanted to talk about system vs use cases
13:52:15 [Ian]
ack mt
13:52:15 [Zakim]
mt, you wanted to wrap up
13:52:22 [Ian]
zakim, take up item 5
13:52:22 [Zakim]
agendum 5 -- Next steps / where discussion continues -- taken up [from tpac-breakout-bot]
13:53:48 [dom]
mt: there are concerns in terms of equity of access - one of the positive things we can do is making the system more equitable e.g. by requiring to support multiple credentials (e.g. not driver licenses from a single jurisdiction)
13:54:38 [marcosc]
https://github.com/WICG/digital-identities
13:54:43 [dom]
marcos: please let's continue the discussion on the digital credentials WICG repo
13:54:57 [dom]
mt: PING is also actively discussing this work, risks and risk mitigations
13:55:08 [koalie]
https://github.com/w3cping/credential-considerations/blob/main/risks.md
13:56:06 [dom]
npdoty: happy to continue these risk discussions in PING, since these aren't technology specific
13:56:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/12-rwi-minutes.html Ian
13:56:27 [koalie]
[people drop off to prep for the next breakout sessions]
13:56:35 [dom]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:56:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/12-rwi-minutes.html dom
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20:19:39 [tpac-breakout-bot]
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20:19:40 [tpac-breakout-bot]
Zakim, bye
20:19:40 [tpac-breakout-bot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
20:19:41 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees have been hsano_, Ian, mt, ivan, dom, Dingwei, Chris_Needham, marcosc, Coralie, npdoty, hober, xfq, kdenhartog, robin, Dan_Appelquist,
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20:19:41 [tpac-breakout-bot]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
20:19:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/12-rwi-minutes.html tpac-breakout-bot
20:19:48 [Zakim]
... cwilso, dbaron, rbyers, marie
20:19:49 [tpac-breakout-bot]
RRSAgent, bye
20:19:49 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items