18:02:21 RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg 18:02:25 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/03/12-aria-apg-irc 18:02:29 rrsagent, make log public 18:02:35 Zakim, start the meeting 18:02:35 RRSAgent, make logs Public 18:02:37 Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force 18:03:10 present+ jugglinmike 18:03:14 scribe+ jugglinmike 18:03:28 jongund has joined #aria-apg 18:04:02 Matt_King has joined #aria-apg 18:04:08 howard-e has joined #aria-apg 18:04:14 present+ 18:04:20 Topic: Setup and Review Agenda 18:04:34 Matt_King: Next week is CSUN, and I don't know if that should or shouldn't affect our schedule 18:04:44 CurtBellew_ has joined #aria-apg 18:04:53 Matt_King: I'm personally fine with meeting next week 18:05:02 Matt_King: (The meeting is scheduled for Tuesday) 18:05:05 present+ jongund 18:05:10 jongund: I'm not going to CSUN 18:05:25 present+ CurtBellew_ 18:05:29 present + 18:05:30 CurtBellew_: I'm not going, either 18:05:49 present+ jongund 18:05:56 Matt_King: Okay, then for now, I'm going to leave it as-is. We'll plan to meet next week 18:06:07 Matt_King: Tuesday, March 19 18:07:07 Topic: Publication status 18:07:19 Matt_King: I think April 1 is a reasonable target. That's three weeks out 18:07:37 Matt_King: We have a few pull requests in the works, and there's nothing pressing that I'm aware of that we should get done sooner 18:07:52 Matt_King: Is anyone aware of anything that should get sooner? 18:08:04 Matt_King: Hearing nothing, we'll set April 1st as our target 18:08:12 Topic: Fix to make combobox labels clickable 18:08:19 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2889 18:08:23 Matt_King: This is basically ready to ship 18:08:44 Matt_King: We're waiting on one more review--Siri was going to test it on mobile 18:09:12 Matt_King: Since Siri isn't here, I may send her an e-mail about this 18:09:20 Topic: Correct CSS cursor property for tabs 18:10:44 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2951 18:10:48 Matt_King: This person is referencing the CSS specification 18:12:10 jongund: MDN says that the "pointing hand" image indicates a link 18:12:18 jongund: But there's nothing for buttons or forum controls 18:14:35 jongund: I would check with James on this because he's the one who suggested we adopt "cursor" 18:19:45 jugglinmike: The referenced spec is outdated, and it's not clear that the text is normative 18:20:28 Matt_King: It sounds like the consensus of the group is that we don't believe the proposed change is justified by the referenced specification. 18:21:51 Matt_King: Further, that if we were going to make a change (which would need to touch many more parts of the APG), we would need more conclusive and authoritative rationale 18:23:46 jongund: Then again, tabs look more like inline text, similar to links, and that's why using the hand pointer might seem appropriate. 18:24:05 Matt_King: It would be great to get perspective from the CSS working group 18:24:54 present+ Daniel 18:26:15 jugglinmike: The latest version of the relevant CSS spec addresses this 18:26:22 jugglinmike: https://drafts.csswg.org/css-ui/#cursor 18:27:08 jugglinmike: Its description of the value of "pointer" includes the following text: "Authors should use pointer on links and may use on other interactive elements." 18:27:31 Matt_King: Ah, I think that settles it, then 18:27:43 Topic: Label requirements for inputs in grids 18:27:50 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2955 18:28:52 Matt_King: My expectation for inputs in a grid or table has always been that the row or column heading serves as a label. If you had another label on it, that could create a pretty verbose screen reader experience 18:29:12 Matt_King: I know that column headers are technically not the accessible name of a cell, though, so I'm curious 18:29:50 Matt_King: Maybe this is actually a spec issue. Or maybe the current specs are right, and there should be labels in APG. In that case, though, the current screen reader behavior may also be wrong 18:30:45 CurtBellew_: In this case, I thought one of the standards applied to labeling included some exceptions for when you are in structures like tables 18:30:56 CurtBellew_: We generally recommend labeling as a best practice 18:31:42 dmontalvo: I would agree with that. It would be very verbose if you had labels in addition to headings. This may be an issue in ARIA 18:31:58 Matt_King: We could move the issue 18:32:51 CoryJoseph: We treat the datagrid component as a data table, so row and header [serve as the label] 18:33:41 Matt_King: In certain situations, it would be onerous to code labels like this. The implementation could get almost out of hand in some situations 18:36:11 Matt_King: WCAG might say something about this. There may even be a WCAG technique 18:36:26 CurtBellew_: It might be "labels and instructions" or maybe one-three-one... 18:36:29 https://www.accessibility-developer-guide.com/examples/forms/in-tables/ 18:37:35 Matt_King: If you were reading a table with table-reading commands, and there were labels that matched the column header and/or row header, the experience would be awful 18:38:33 dmontalvo: I support transferring the issue to ARIA 18:39:42 dmontalvo: The closest topic in WCAG I could find is "H79" 18:39:56 https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG22/Techniques/html/H79 18:40:27 Matt_King: One place where this might be a gap is in accname calculation 18:40:53 jongund: But does accname take the "label" element into account? 18:41:05 Matt_King: Yes; accname accounts for all possible ways of computing a name 18:43:49 Matt_King: I think what might be a problem here is (at least for inputs) if you bring up a list of inputs, and they're not labeled in a table. That feels like an accname problem 18:48:24 Matt_King: I'm startingto get the feeling that the answer needs to come from a different group, not from APG 18:48:40 Matt_King: And that until then, APG shouldn't make a change 18:49:33 Matt_King: Based on our discussion here today, do we have consensus on that response? 18:50:18 CurtBellew_: I don't see enough evidence. Like I said, we suggest labeling just as a best practice 18:50:31 present+ AriellaGilmore 18:50:47 AriellaGilmore: I'd like to hear from ARIA before making the change to APG 18:50:58 CoryJoseph: I also think consulting with ARIA makes sense 18:51:15 Matt_King: The more I think about this, the more nuanced I think the problem is 18:53:38 s/as a best practice/as a best practice, but not a requirement. We encourage folks to use "aria-labeledby" to reference table headers, but we don't insist 18:54:25 s/labeling as a best practice/labeling as a best practice, but not a requirement. 18:54:45 s/labeling as a best practice/labeling as a best practice, but not a requirement./ 18:58:01 Matt_King: If anyone wants to attach some CodePens to this issue, that's cool 19:00:40 Zakim, end the meeting 19:00:40 As of this point the attendees have been jugglinmike, howard-e, jongund, CurtBellew_, Daniel, AriellaGilmore 19:00:43 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 19:00:44 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/12-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim 19:00:51 I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 19:00:51 Zakim has left #aria-apg 19:01:06 RRSAgent, leave 19:01:06 I see no action items