16:54:20 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
16:54:24 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/03/07-rdf-star-irc
16:54:26 <ktk> meeting:  RDF-Star WG biweekly meeting
16:54:46 <ktk> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/0a6aa6e3-635c-42c2-baba-938c76b6ef01/20240307T120000/
16:54:47 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:54:47 <agendabot> agenda+ Approval of minutes from the last two meetings: [1]
16:54:47 <agendabot> agenda+ Proposal for next week's discussion [2]
16:54:47 <agendabot> agenda+ Charter Extension / Rechartering
16:54:47 <agendabot> agenda+ W3C Breakout Day [3]
16:54:50 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of open actions, available at [4]
16:54:52 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of pull requests, available at [5]
16:54:55 <agendabot> agenda+ Issue Triage, available at [6]
16:54:57 <agendabot> agenda+ Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting
16:55:03 <ktk> Agenda?
16:55:07 <pfps> present+
16:55:32 <pfps> scribe+
16:57:07 <ktk> present+
16:57:14 <ktk> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:57:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/07-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
16:57:20 <ktk> RRSAgent, make log public
16:57:55 <eBremer> eBremer has joined #rdf-star
16:58:03 <ktk> Regrets: doerthe, olaf
16:58:06 <tl> tl has joined #rdf-star
16:58:47 <fsasaki> fsasaki has joined #rdf-star
16:59:02 <TallTed> TallTed has joined #rdf-star
16:59:36 <Dominik_T> Dominik_T has joined #rdf-star
16:59:40 <ktk> FYI bot is already there, you can present
16:59:50 <ora> ora has joined #rdf-star
17:00:19 <gtw> present+
17:00:24 <enrico> enrico has joined #rdf-star
17:00:41 <pchampin> present
17:00:42 <enrico> present+
17:00:44 <Dominik_T> present+
17:01:03 <eBremer> present+
17:01:08 <pfps> zakim, who is here
17:01:08 <Zakim> pfps, you need to end that query with '?'
17:01:11 <pfps> zakim, who is here?
17:01:11 <Zakim> Present: pfps, ktk, gtw, enrico, Dominik_T, eBremer
17:01:13 <Zakim> On IRC I see enrico, ora, Dominik_T, TallTed, fsasaki, tl, eBremer, RRSAgent, Zakim, pfps, gkellogg, AndyS, Tpt, ktk, pchampin, driib, csarven, gb, gtw, AnthonySpencer,
17:01:13 <Zakim> ... VladimirAlexiev, SintayewGashaw, Timothe, smoothsalt, joraboi445, rhiaro, agendabot
17:01:18 <pchampin> pchampin has changed the topic to: RDF-star WG — Short Biweekly meeting — https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/0a6aa6e3-635c-42c2-baba-938c76b6ef01/20240307T120000/
17:01:23 <pchampin> pchampin has changed the topic to: RDF-star WG — Short biweekly meeting — https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/0a6aa6e3-635c-42c2-baba-938c76b6ef01/20240307T120000/
17:01:24 <ora> present+
17:01:30 <ora> chair: ora
17:01:35 <pchampin> present+
17:01:37 <Tpt> present+
17:02:01 <niklasl> niklasl has joined #rdf-star
17:02:03 <gkellogg> present+
17:02:07 <niklasl> present+
17:02:20 <TallTed> TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF-star WG — 2024-03-07 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/0a6aa6e3-635c-42c2-baba-938c76b6ef01/20240307T120000/
17:02:22 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:02:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/07-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:02:29 <TallTed> RRSAgent, make logs public
17:02:30 <TallTed> present+
17:02:30 <TallTed> Zakim, agenda?
17:02:30 <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda:
17:02:30 <Zakim> 1. Approval of minutes from the last two meetings: [from 1 via agendabot]
17:02:30 <Zakim> 2. Proposal for next week's discussion [from 2 via agendabot]
17:02:30 <Zakim> 3. Charter Extension / Rechartering [from agendabot]
17:02:30 <Zakim> 4. W3C Breakout Day [from 3 via agendabot]
17:02:31 <Zakim> 5. Review of open actions, available at [from 4 via agendabot]
17:02:31 <Zakim> 6. Review of pull requests, available at [from 5 via agendabot]
17:02:31 <Zakim> 7. Issue Triage, available at [from 6 via agendabot]
17:02:32 <Zakim> 8. Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting [from agendabot]
17:02:52 <tl> present+
17:03:10 <AndyS> present+
17:03:12 <pfps> zakim, next agendum
17:03:12 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Approval of minutes from the last two meetings: -- taken up [from 1]
17:03:20 <pfps> https://www.w3.org/2024/02/22-rdf-star-minutes.html
17:03:27 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-star
17:03:39 <pfps> https://www.w3.org/2024/02/29-rdf-star-minutes.html
17:03:46 <pfps> ora: any comments or concerns about the minutes?
17:04:01 <draggett> draggett has joined #rdf-star
17:04:07 <gtw> "(MEETING TITLE)"?
17:04:08 <ktk> PROPOSAL: Approve minutes 2024-02-22
17:04:15 <Souri> present+
17:04:15 <gkellogg> +1
17:04:15 <niklasl> +1
17:04:17 <eBremer> +1
17:04:20 <TallTed> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/03/01-rdf-star-minutes.html
17:04:22 <tl> +1
17:04:22 <TallTed> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/03/08-rdf-star-minutes.html
17:04:24 <Souri> +1
17:04:30 <enrico> +1
17:04:33 <Dominik_T> +0 (absent)
17:04:35 <ktk> +1
17:04:36 <gtw> +1
17:04:36 <ora> +1
17:04:38 <TallTed> +1
17:04:42 <pfps> zakim, who is here?
17:04:42 <Zakim> Present: pfps, ktk, gtw, enrico, Dominik_T, eBremer, ora, pchampin, Tpt, gkellogg, niklasl, TallTed, tl, AndyS, Souri
17:04:44 <Zakim> On IRC I see draggett, Souri, niklasl, enrico, ora, Dominik_T, TallTed, fsasaki, tl, eBremer, RRSAgent, Zakim, pfps, gkellogg, AndyS, Tpt, ktk, pchampin, driib, csarven, gb, gtw,
17:04:44 <Zakim> ... AnthonySpencer, VladimirAlexiev, SintayewGashaw, Timothe, smoothsalt, joraboi445, rhiaro, agendabot
17:04:54 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:04:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/07-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:05:10 <ktk> RESOLUTION: Approve minutes 2024-02-22
17:05:29 <ktk> PROPOSAL: Approve minutes 2024-02-29
17:05:33 <gkellogg> +1
17:05:34 <ora> +1
17:05:36 <Dominik_T> +1
17:05:36 <Tpt> +1
17:05:37 <gtw> +1
17:05:37 <ktk> +1
17:05:38 <pchampin> +1
17:05:40 <enrico> +1
17:05:40 <tl> +1
17:05:42 <niklasl> +1
17:05:46 <pfps> ktk: Pierre-Antoinne please fix title on minutes of 22nd
17:05:59 <ktk> RESOLUTION: Approve minutes 2024-02-29
17:05:59 <TallTed> s/FYI bot is already there, you can present//
17:06:19 <pfps> zakim, next agendum
17:06:19 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Proposal for next week's discussion -- taken up [from 2]
17:06:31 <pfps> ora: any ideas for next week?
17:07:03 <enrico> q+
17:07:09 <ora> ack enrico
17:07:25 <pfps> enrico: have names been agreed on, for now
17:07:30 <pfps> ora: yes
17:07:48 <niklasl> Specifically `rdf:reifies`
17:07:49 <pchampin> q+
17:07:54 <TallTed> i/chair: ora/scribe: pfps
17:07:58 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:07:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/07-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:08:06 <pfps> gregg: there were some concerns about terminology related to reification
17:08:28 <pfps> andys: we need to have the documents updated to see how things flow
17:08:44 <ora> ack pchampin
17:08:45 <pfps> gregg: the Turtle document needs updating
17:09:36 <pfps> pchampin: my understanding is that we will go ahead with some reification-related vocabulary
17:09:52 <AndyS> q+
17:09:54 <pfps> pchampin: it might be possible to not have much in concepts
17:10:05 <pfps> ora: let's proceed with current terminology
17:10:06 <ora> ack AndyS
17:10:37 <pfps> andys: concepts doesn't have much on vocabulary so it is understandable that lists are not ther
17:10:54 <enrico> q+
17:11:04 <pfps> andys: the stuff related to embedded triples is different
17:11:10 <ora> ack enrico
17:11:24 <pchampin> regrets+ draggett
17:11:42 <pfps> enrico: how about well-formedness?
17:11:50 <pfps> ora: sound reasonable
17:12:11 <pfps> ora: for next week - fallout from breakout day and well-formedness
17:13:08 <pchampin> q+
17:13:09 <gkellogg> q+
17:13:15 <pchampin> q-
17:13:15 <pfps> Zakim, next agendum
17:13:16 <ora> ack pchampin
17:13:16 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, pfps
17:13:18 <gkellogg> q=
17:13:20 <gkellogg> q-
17:13:25 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-star
17:13:29 <AZ> present+
17:13:35 <pfps> Zakim, next agendum
17:13:35 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Charter Extension / Rechartering -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:13:42 <pfps> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2024Mar/0002.html
17:14:01 <pfps> s/https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2024Mar/0002.html//
17:14:20 <pchampin> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg-charter/pulls
17:14:30 <pchampin> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg-charter/pull/57
17:14:30 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg-charter/pull/57 -> Pull Request 57 Charter extension 2024-03 (by pchampin)
17:15:01 <pfps> pchampin: I have made a PR to modify the charter, so far just to push the dates
17:16:04 <pfps> pchampin: charter extensions are only for six months so a one year extension is a rechartering that needs a vote
17:16:38 <pfps> pchampin: the recharter could include a one-year extension plus one year for maintenance
17:17:26 <pfps> ora: asking for a six-month extension seems to be a simpler thing
17:17:41 <pfps> pchampin: that would be optimistic but the WG could so decide
17:17:46 <pfps> ora: any thoughts
17:18:01 <tl> so we can have multiple six-months extensions?
17:18:30 <pfps> andys: I don't know how much effort is required for rechartering.  Is there a risk that the charter might be significantly modified?
17:19:23 <pfps> pchampin: We would decide what to put in the new charter.   There is a risk that members could request changes.
17:19:52 <pfps> ora: is there is a risk that the rechartering would be denied?
17:20:22 <pfps> andys: my worry is more about concerns that require changes, not about denial
17:20:47 <pfps> gregg: can we ask for an extension and mention that we might need another?
17:21:02 <pfps> andys: what is the history here?
17:21:13 <TallTed> q+
17:21:28 <ora> ack TallTed
17:21:57 <pfps> tallted: extensions are less acceptable than they used to be
17:22:23 <pfps> tallted: we should take the advice we have been given, i.e., recharter
17:22:55 <pchampin> q+
17:23:02 <ora> ack pchampin
17:24:13 <pfps> pchampin: members have been more stringent, and the team has responded to this
17:24:44 <pfps> tallted: the AC can always override team decisions so it might be better to go directly to them
17:26:02 <pfps> gregg: there is no guarantee here but we are now making progress
17:26:27 <pfps> gregg: my recollection was that the plan was to go into maintenance mode
17:26:40 <pchampin> q+
17:26:48 <pfps> tallted: living standard might be better than maintenance mode
17:26:49 <ora> ack pchampin
17:27:11 <pfps> tallted: living standard allows new features
17:27:32 <ktk> +q
17:27:50 <ora> ack ktk
17:27:55 <pfps> pchampin: my view is that maintenance mode involves updates to a living standard
17:29:01 <pfps> ktk: a rechartering allows us to adjust scope of the working group to better correspond to what is needed
17:29:22 <ktk> https://www.w3.org/2022/08/rdf-star-wg-charter/
17:29:37 <pfps> tallted: some aspects of the work that has already been done could also be documented
17:29:52 <pfps> pchampin:  the charter does mention all the documents
17:30:01 <gkellogg> q+
17:30:06 <pfps> pchampin: I would be careful about changing scope
17:30:20 <ora> ack gkellogg
17:30:54 <pfps> gregg: there was a WG discussion of the name early on
17:30:57 <pfps> q+
17:31:06 <ora> ack pfps
17:31:34 <ora> STRAWPOLL: re-chartering rather than charter extension?
17:31:35 <pfps> pfps: the old WG names did not correspond well with the names of the output documents
17:31:45 <pchampin> +1
17:31:48 <pfps> ora: let's do a straw poll
17:31:54 <gkellogg> +1
17:31:56 <pfps> 0
17:32:00 <Tpt> 0
17:32:01 <AndyS> +0 : either - defer to experts
17:32:02 <ora> 0
17:32:02 <AZ> +0
17:32:03 <enrico> 0
17:32:04 <niklasl> +0
17:32:06 <TallTed> +1 recharter, +0.5 extension
17:32:06 <Souri> 0
17:32:07 <ktk> +0
17:32:08 <tl> +0
17:32:17 <eBremer> +1
17:32:21 <Dominik_T> +0
17:32:21 <gtw> +0
17:33:10 <pfps> ora: the chairs will discuss this issue
17:33:21 <pfps> ktk: ... and come up with a proposal
17:33:23 <fsasaki> present+
17:33:32 <pfps> Zakim, next agendum
17:33:32 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- W3C Breakout Day -- taken up [from 3]
17:34:07 <pfps> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2024Mar/0002.html
17:34:13 <niklasl> q+
17:34:18 <AndyS> RDF-star , RDF1.2 -- https://github.com/w3c/breakouts-day-2024/issues/21
17:34:18 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/breakouts-day-2024/issues/21 -> Issue 21 RDF-Star and RDF 1.2 (by rdfguy) [session]
17:34:22 <ora> ack niklasl
17:34:32 <pfps> ora: who wants to make a presentation?
17:34:46 <pfps> niklasl: I can put together some slide
17:35:11 <pfps> ora:  I'll put together some slides and niklasl and I can collaborate
17:35:49 <pchampin> https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/rdf-star/calendar/ gives the correct time in your own timezone
17:36:07 <ktk> q+
17:36:08 <pfps> ora: the US is switching to summer time this weeken and this changes meeting times for those who aren't switching (yet)
17:36:13 <ora> ack ktk
17:37:05 <Souri> +1 I'll be there (9am-10am ET, right?)
17:37:07 <pchampin> I'll do my best, but I'll be in a train
17:37:12 <pfps> ora: who will be there?
17:37:39 <pchampin> Breakout session: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/0fc23324-8bf1-47b8-b0cf-1f0f31befb09/
17:39:54 <pfps> zakim, next agendum
17:39:54 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Review of open actions, available at -- taken up [from 4]
17:40:44 <TallTed> Looks like a glitch in the W3 calendar. Some sub-events show both CUT and "reader's local time". Our sub-event only shows CUT. https://www.w3.org/calendar/breakouts-day-2024/breakout-sessions/
17:41:13 <gkellogg> q+
17:41:17 <pchampin> q+
17:41:30 <pfps> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3
17:41:30 <pfps> ora: we can talk about action items to fix up the vocabulary
17:41:44 <ora> ack gkellogg
17:41:51 <pchampin> q-
17:42:06 <pfps> gregg: I've been proceeding and have some PRs lined up for this.   There are others as well.
17:42:48 <pfps> gregg: Perhaps we need something for vocabulary extensions.
17:43:11 <pfps> gregg: Olaf has a PR for concepts.
17:43:21 <pchampin> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/78
17:43:21 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/78 -> Pull Request 78 Proposal to adapt the abstract syntax to option 3 (by hartig) [spec:substantive]
17:44:01 <pfps> ora: looks good for now
17:44:12 <pfps> gregg:  SPARQL documents need to be updated
17:45:04 <pfps> pfps: it looks like Semantics and Schema are the ones that need to be addressed
17:45:23 <pfps> ora: there should be something in the What's New note.
17:45:44 <Souri> q+
17:45:50 <ora> ack Souri
17:45:52 <pfps> gregg: something in RDF/XML seems indicated
17:46:24 <pfps> souri: we may need distinction between old-style and new-style
17:46:43 <Souri> atomic, new-style, well-formed, ...
17:46:53 <pfps> ora: anything else
17:46:56 <niklasl> +1 to e.g. atomic reification.
17:47:01 <pfps> Zakim, next agendum
17:47:01 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- Review of pull requests, available at -- taken up [from 5]
17:47:07 <pchampin> q+
17:47:22 <ora> ack pchampin
17:47:23 <ora> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4
17:47:57 <pfps> pchampin: I looked at the PRs and I suggest how we represent triple terms in concrete syntax
17:48:16 <AndyS> q+
17:48:19 <pchampin> <( :s :p :o )>
17:48:45 <pfps> pchampin: the current notation is <<>> - I suggest using <(...)>
17:48:54 <niklasl> <(:s:p:o)> a :ValidURI . # ?
17:49:00 <ora> ack AndyS
17:49:03 <AndyS> <()> is a valid URI :-)
17:49:06 <pfps> pchampin: this should be easy to parse and be less confusing
17:49:31 <pchampin> I stand corrected, then
17:49:32 <niklasl> (... rather common in wikipedia...)
17:49:42 <pfps> andys:  parentheses are legal in IRIs so there may be problems
17:49:44 <niklasl> q+
17:49:56 <ora> ack niklasl
17:49:58 <pfps> pchampin:  so my proposal won't work
17:50:23 <pfps> niklasl: should we have a discussion
17:50:49 <pfps> andys: if we go with <<(...)>> for now we can proceed and change afterwards
17:51:39 <pfps> ora: sparql makes use of every possible ASCII bracket
17:51:56 <Souri> <| ... |> allowed in URIs?
17:52:09 <ora> q?
17:52:21 <niklasl> <|:s:p:o|> a :InvalidURI . # hm.
17:53:15 <AndyS> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc3986#appendix-A
17:53:20 <pfps> q+
17:53:32 <pfps> ora: mobile phone display
17:53:36 <pfps> q-
17:54:13 <pfps> ora: RDF is a model is too new to dispose of right now
17:54:26 <pchampin> https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/pull/143
17:54:27 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/pull/143 -> Pull Request 143 RDF is a model, not a format (by TallTed) [spec:editorial]
17:54:43 <pfps> tallted: I think we can go ahead
17:54:47 <pfps> ora: agreed
17:55:49 <pfps> gregg: the concepts one is a gate on other PRs
17:56:00 <gkellogg> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/78
17:56:00 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/78 -> Pull Request 78 Proposal to adapt the abstract syntax to option 3 (by hartig) [spec:substantive]
17:56:30 <Souri> Do we have a meeting tomorrow?
17:56:44 <pfps> gregg: this adds the new way of thinking about embedded triples
17:56:55 <pfps> andys: there are required changes on this PR
17:57:13 <pchampin> q+
17:57:53 <pchampin> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/80
17:57:54 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/80 -> Issue 80 where are triple terms allowed (by pfps) [needs discussion] [spec:substantive]
17:58:08 <pfps> tallted: the stuff that remains on #78 is covered by #80
17:58:09 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/80 -> CLOSED Action 80 configure the gb IRC bot to route actions to w3c/rdf-star-wg (on pchampin)
17:58:09 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/78 -> CLOSED Action 78 investigate hiccups in github actions (on pchampin) due 27 Jul 2023
17:58:36 <pfps> andys: we need to have this point cleared up but can we proceed with #78 as is
17:58:38 <pchampin> q-
17:58:53 <pfps> andys: are pfps and tallted OK with this
17:58:58 <pfps> tallted: fine by me
17:59:23 <pfps> ... but I want a reason
17:59:27 <pfps> pfps: fine by me
17:59:59 <pfps> ora: merge #78 so that other work can proceed
18:00:02 <pchampin> +1
18:00:15 <TallTed> to be clear -- fine to merge https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/78 and follow up in https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/80
18:00:16 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/78 -> Pull Request 78 Proposal to adapt the abstract syntax to option 3 (by hartig) [spec:substantive]
18:01:17 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:01:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/07-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
18:04:48 <pchampin> gkellogg, the echidna issue is about "quoted_ triple" and "asserted_triple" being not defined anymore, but still referenced by some parts of the doc
18:11:17 <pchampin> gkellogg, just pushed a quick fix
18:11:22 <pchampin> Zakim, bye
18:11:22 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been pfps, ktk, gtw, enrico, Dominik_T, eBremer, ora, pchampin, Tpt, gkellogg, niklasl, TallTed, tl, AndyS, Souri, AZ, fsasaki
18:11:22 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdf-star
18:11:25 <pchampin> RRSAgent, bye
18:11:25 <RRSAgent> I see no action items