18:02:33 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
18:02:37 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/03/07-aria-irc
18:02:38 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
18:03:09 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
18:03:09 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
18:03:09 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
18:03:09 <giacomo-petri> giacomo-petri has joined #aria
18:03:09 <giacomo-petri> present+
18:03:09 <Rahim> present+
18:03:13 <agendabot> Sorry, I did not find an agenda.
18:03:18 <Adam_Page> present+
18:03:24 <pkra> pkra has joined #aria
18:03:29 <Francis_Storr> present+
18:03:32 <pkra> present+
18:03:35 <spectranaut_> spectranaut_ has joined #aria
18:03:52 <katez> present+
18:03:54 <scotto> present+
18:04:10 <aardrian> present+
18:05:09 <jamesn> agenda+ [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/3TkKoJo)
18:05:09 <jamesn> agenda+  [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3wGCsJL)
18:05:09 <jamesn> agenda+  [WPT Open PRs](https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Aweb-platform-tests%2Fwpt+is%3Aopen+label%3Awai-aria%2Caccname&type=pullrequests)
18:05:09 <jamesn> agenda+  [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates)
18:05:10 <jamesn> agenda+  [Add `nameFrom: heading` steps to computation after spec addition ARIA PR #1860 is reviewed.](https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/182)
18:05:10 <jamesn> agenda+  [ARIAMixin has many integer attributes with string types and uses DOMString? incorrectly](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1110)
18:05:18 <jamesn> agenda+ Daylight savings time
18:05:21 <keithamus> present+
18:05:30 <dmontalvo> present+ Daniel
18:05:43 <sarah> sarah has joined #aria
18:06:05 <spectranaut_> scribe: spectranaut
18:06:09 <spectranaut_> scribe: spectranaut_
18:06:13 <spectranaut_> zakim, next item
18:06:13 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/3TkKoJo) -- taken up [from jamesn]
18:06:43 <sarah> present+
18:06:44 <spectranaut_> jamesn: 2140 on aria
18:06:57 <spectranaut_> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2140
18:07:52 <spectranaut_> jamesn: any comments on this...?
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18:08:19 <CurtBellew> present +
18:08:25 <spectranaut_> jcraig: this sounds editorial. its allowed in other areas, I think its a bug in that one sentence
18:09:01 <spectranaut_> aardrian: I could do this
18:09:40 <spectranaut_> jamesn: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2137
18:10:32 <spectranaut_> jcraig: we are going to remove "orphan" role tests to some tests to a tentative file... this is not something that is actually speced in ARIA
18:10:55 <spectranaut_> jcraig: orphan tests are gridcells that are not in a row or table
18:11:12 <spectranaut_> jcraig: though these are author errors, we do not make clear what the user agent should return in these scenarios
18:11:29 <spectranaut_> jcraig: should it be left to implementation detail? there are differences in the implementations
18:11:44 <scotto> q+
18:11:59 <spectranaut_> jcraig: the aria working group should decide what to do. this might have html-aam downstream work
18:12:21 <spectranaut_> jamesn: should we agenda for further discussion?
18:12:23 <scotto> q-
18:12:28 <spectranaut_> jcraig: probably also a deep dive candidate
18:12:43 <spectranaut_> jamesn: https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/223
18:13:02 <scotto> was only going to comment on the fact that i agree.  html aam work.  there are already some instances of contextual roles exactly about orphaned content
18:13:10 <spectranaut_> jamesn: should we leave this going in discussion between scott and james teh?
18:13:27 <spectranaut_> scotto: one of the reasons this is coming up because we keep punting association list down the road
18:13:39 <spectranaut_> jamesn: yeah... ok... well.. should we talk about again?
18:14:14 <spectranaut_> scotto: doesn't need a deep dive. I think last we talked about it, detailed lists should just be lists. whether we do role description, I'm unsure. but we should finish discussion
18:14:29 <spectranaut_> jamesn: agenda'd
18:14:51 <spectranaut_> jamesn: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2135
18:14:57 <spectranaut_> jamesn: should we agenda?
18:15:02 <spectranaut_> jcraig: yeah I think so
18:15:10 <spectranaut_> jcraig: dominic should be there for the discussion
18:15:46 <spectranaut_> jamesn: https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/535
18:15:54 <spectranaut_> scotto: I filled this for myself
18:16:14 <spectranaut_> scotto: to see if anything needs to be mentioned in the naming steps.. finally putting together wpt for minimal role stuff
18:16:25 <spectranaut_> scotto: then I saw this should statement
18:16:46 <spectranaut_> scotto: how is naming handled for things that have draggable attribute?
18:17:01 <spectranaut_> adam: does putting draggable make it focusable?
18:17:12 <spectranaut_> jcraig: no, it doesn't even make it draggable
18:17:38 <spectranaut_> jcraig: complications with that are why we dropped the aria properties
18:17:55 <spectranaut_> jamesn: https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/534
18:18:24 <spectranaut_> scotto: val assigned her self to make platform bugs, we should do any more work on this until those things land
18:18:41 <spectranaut_> zakim, next item
18:18:41 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3wGCsJL) -- taken up [from jamesn]
18:19:16 <spectranaut_> jamesn: https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2134
18:19:39 <spectranaut_> jamesn: two approving PRs, I think we can merge
18:20:35 <spectranaut_> zakim,  next item
18:20:35 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- [WPT Open PRs](https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Aweb-platform-tests%2Fwpt+is%3Aopen+label%3Awai-aria%2Caccname&type=pullrequests) -- taken up [from jamesn]
18:21:16 <spectranaut_> jcraig: I'm working with anne on: https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt/pull/44971
18:21:40 <spectranaut_> Adam_Page: this one is still draft: https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt/pull/44965
18:21:53 <scotto> did i do something wrong for https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt/pull/44934 to not show up in this list?
18:22:15 <spectranaut_> jcraig: I'll review this one and merge https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt/pull/44600
18:22:35 <spectranaut_> jcraig: unless the removed tests should be put in tentative
18:22:40 <spectranaut_> jamesn: they look fine to remove to me
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18:23:10 <StefanS> present+
18:25:32 <spectranaut_> zakim, next item
18:25:32 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates) -- taken up [from jamesn]
18:25:36 <jamesn> agenda?
18:26:26 <spectranaut_> jamesn: nothing to schedule for next week or following week
18:26:30 <spectranaut_> zakim, take up item 7
18:26:30 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- Daylight savings time -- taken up [from jamesn]
18:26:55 <spectranaut_> jamesn: if you are outside of the US and canada, the meeting time will shift
18:27:14 <spectranaut_> for the time for the next week, if you don't have daylight savings time
18:27:36 <spectranaut_> zakim, take up item 5
18:27:36 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- [Add `nameFrom: heading` steps to computation after spec addition ARIA PR #1860 is reviewed.](https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/182) -- taken up [from jamesn]
18:28:39 <spectranaut_> to discuss this comment: https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/182#issuecomment-1936015290
18:29:20 <spectranaut_> jcraig: to describe briefly, the first heading will be the first to contribute to the name
18:29:35 <spectranaut_> jcraig: but depth first search will slow down name computation
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18:29:47 <spectranaut_> jcraig: I think the user would notice on all of these roles
18:30:06 <spectranaut_> jcraig: there is another search, iterative deepening first search
18:30:24 <spectranaut_> jcraig: this will work most of the time, but there are examples which really don't make sense
18:30:37 <spectranaut_> jcraig: see scott's examples
18:30:47 <spectranaut_> jcraig: this may or may not be an edge case
18:31:26 <spectranaut_> s/he first heading will be the first to contribute to the name/the first heading is expected to contribute to the name from authors probably/
18:31:44 <jamesn> q?
18:31:50 <spectranaut_> jcraig: we need consensus from wg and implementers because of the performance hit
18:32:00 <jamesn> q+
18:32:21 <spectranaut_> scotto: the issue is that I understand what james is saying, I don't want a performance hit, but I can't say these are edge cases, I see these patterns everywhere
18:32:48 <spectranaut_> scotto: I found three sites that would have unexpected headings for the name of the article
18:33:01 <spectranaut_> scotto: they are using the mark up pattern that html says they should use
18:33:10 <spectranaut_> jcraig: they are using the hgroup?
18:33:16 <spectranaut_> scotto: some people are using the hgroup
18:33:31 <spectranaut_> jcraig: on a lot of sites there are lots of extraneous divs
18:33:42 <spectranaut_> scotto: I would expect divs without roles to be ignored
18:33:57 <spectranaut_> scotto: but what about div tab index -1?
18:34:14 <spectranaut_> jcraig: I would need verify but I don't think that would improve the performance
18:34:37 <spectranaut_> jcraig: deep vs breadth is the critical part, parsing the nodes and ignoring them won't help
18:35:01 <spectranaut_> jcraig: the critical blockers, we need to hear from chromium and gecko
18:35:24 <spectranaut_> jcraig: if they come back and say "eh it's not much of a problem", then I'll dig deeper into webkit and get some numbers
18:35:59 <jamesn> ack me
18:36:01 <spectranaut_> jamesn: it seems like the alternative proposal has too many weird consequences... with unexpected names occurring frequently. didn't apple already implement something similar for articles?
18:36:47 <spectranaut_> jcraig: I filled the orig bug a few years ago, but  i said the spec should be more permissive in the way we choose the name. voiceover was naming things based on what it knew was a heading inside. webkit obscured some extraneous divs. voiceover's search was fast enough
18:37:09 <jamesn> qv?
18:37:55 <spectranaut_> jcraig: sounds like something you don't want, iterative deepening, so maybe this is a choice between standard depth first search or scrapping name from heading?
18:38:44 <spectranaut_> jamesn: you are doing something with html according to specification, and you will get something unexpected
18:39:09 <spectranaut_> jcraig: I'll change the PR to use deep first search, and then it will unblock implementaitons
18:39:21 <spectranaut_> jcraig: then we can investigate the performance cost
18:40:01 <spectranaut_> jcraig: unless the web engines are conscious about potential perf costs, the change can include a way to measure the change
18:40:26 <spectranaut_> jamesn: I'm curious about.. aren't we calculating the accname for all the elements anyway?
18:40:38 <spectranaut_> jcraig: we don't compute the name until we land on it
18:40:48 <spectranaut_> jamesn: is that why it takes so long for the acc tree to come up?
18:41:08 <scotto> q+
18:41:19 <spectranaut_> jcraig: in the dev tools, it takes a while because it's spinning up the acc tree and doing additional calls
18:41:21 <jamesn> q+
18:41:48 <jamesn> ack scotto
18:41:51 <spectranaut_> jcraig: when you land on a article, you have to go through the WHOLE subtree to rule out name from heading
18:42:08 <spectranaut_> jcraig: if there is no heading that will take a while
18:42:20 <spectranaut_> scotto: contextual roles for header/footer/aside, etc
18:42:45 <spectranaut_> scotto: talking to aaron lev, aaron was saying that if we spec this to be based on the acc tree rather than the dom nodes, it would be more performant
18:43:13 <spectranaut_> scotto: that is where I was coming from, if this calculated in the acc tree instead of the dom tree
18:43:50 <spectranaut_> jcraig: that is a good idea, but because we don't have a standard accessibility tree between browsers it might lead to difference. I don't think we could implement it yet reliably
18:44:07 <spectranaut_> jcraig: if you are talking to him can you post the comment?
18:44:18 <spectranaut_> scotto: I'll saw what I remembered, and I'll cc him in
18:44:46 <jamesn> ack me
18:45:23 <spectranaut_> jamesn: I know this is something that might not want to do because it is hard to explain, seems like 99% of our use case or more would be covered if we did depth first search of only 2 deep?
18:45:32 <spectranaut_> jcraig: maybe 75%
18:45:44 <spectranaut_> jcraig: and you add an extra div and it suddenly doesn't work
18:45:59 <spectranaut_> scotto: and what happens with shadow dom???
18:46:40 <spectranaut_> zakim, next item
18:46:40 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates) -- taken up [from jamesn]
18:46:50 <spectranaut_> zakim, take up item 6
18:46:50 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- [ARIAMixin has many integer attributes with string types and uses DOMString? incorrectly](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1110) -- taken up [from jamesn]
18:47:15 <spectranaut_> jamesn: is this something we are ever going to do something about?
18:48:43 <spectranaut_> keithamus: some of the types don't match up.. I'm not sure the risk to make them match up
18:49:34 <spectranaut_> keithamus: I plan to chip away at this over the next month or so, if we align to the html spec, it would require changes in the browser implementation, which is fine except for compatibility issue. There are certain patterns where developers do feature detection...
18:50:00 <spectranaut_> keithamus: for anything that isn't enumerated, if you can set it and read it and see whether it is a supported value
18:50:12 <spectranaut_> keithamus: this needs some careful teasing apart
18:50:50 <spectranaut_> jcraig: this will break existing web pages, its not editorial
18:51:04 <spectranaut_> jcraig: there is a web compat risk
18:51:16 <spectranaut_> jcraig: I handed this off to anne and others because this is a broad discussion
18:51:56 <spectranaut_> jcraig: we reflected all of these as strings for a few years now... and think.. last year gecko implemented to match. we even have wpt tests for it...? I will have to verify
18:52:07 <spectranaut_> jcraig: to get these changes in, we will break a lot
18:52:35 <spectranaut_> jcraig: I don't think we don't have usage information about whether anything will break
18:52:48 <spectranaut_> keithamus: that is what I was going to div into
18:53:13 <spectranaut_> keithamus: we incorrectly says "domstring?", there is an editorial change to change from "domstring?" to "domstring"
18:53:23 <spectranaut_> jcraig: the "?" means nullable?
18:53:42 <spectranaut_> keithamus: yeah, and "domstring?" must be limited to known values, for eample
18:53:56 <spectranaut_> keithamus: so we need to tweak it for that. but each one needs to be analyzed
18:54:06 <spectranaut_> keithamus: this is worth weighing up each change
18:54:35 <jamesn> agenda?
18:54:47 <jamesn> zakim, drop item 4
18:54:47 <Zakim> agendum 4, [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates), dropped
18:54:52 <jamesn> zakim, drop item 7
18:54:52 <Zakim> agendum 7, Daylight savings time, dropped
18:54:52 <spectranaut_> jcraig: probably it's fine if we change from a nullable to empty string
18:55:20 <spectranaut_> keithamus: (something about salesforce I didn't catch)
18:55:49 <spectranaut_> jcraig: I'm fine with domstring? to domstring
18:56:15 <spectranaut_> jamesn: sounds like you are working on this and I really appreciate, this is an area the group has been lacking in expertise
18:57:13 <keithamus> Salesforce (Nolan Lawson) are concerned about changes to this due to their polyfill, and we don't want to break that.
18:58:12 <spectranaut_> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:58:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/07-aria-minutes.html spectranaut_
18:59:02 <spectranaut_> zakim, end meeting
18:59:02 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been giacomo-petri, Rahim, Adam_Page, Francis_Storr, pkra, katez, scotto, aardrian, keithamus, Daniel, sarah, StefanS
18:59:05 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
18:59:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/07-aria-minutes.html Zakim
18:59:12 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, spectranaut_; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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