IRC log of aria on 2024-03-07
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 18:02:33 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #aria
- 18:02:37 [RRSAgent]
- logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/03/07-aria-irc
- 18:02:38 [Zakim]
- RRSAgent, make logs Public
- 18:03:09 [Zakim]
- Meeting: ARIA WG
- 18:03:09 [jamesn]
- agendabot, find agenda
- 18:03:09 [agendabot]
- jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
- 18:03:09 [giacomo-petri]
- giacomo-petri has joined #aria
- 18:03:09 [giacomo-petri]
- present+
- 18:03:09 [Rahim]
- present+
- 18:03:13 [agendabot]
- Sorry, I did not find an agenda.
- 18:03:18 [Adam_Page]
- present+
- 18:03:24 [pkra]
- pkra has joined #aria
- 18:03:29 [Francis_Storr]
- present+
- 18:03:32 [pkra]
- present+
- 18:03:35 [spectranaut_]
- spectranaut_ has joined #aria
- 18:03:52 [katez]
- present+
- 18:03:54 [scotto]
- present+
- 18:04:10 [aardrian]
- present+
- 18:05:09 [jamesn]
- agenda+ [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/3TkKoJo)
- 18:05:09 [jamesn]
- agenda+ [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3wGCsJL)
- 18:05:09 [jamesn]
- agenda+ [WPT Open PRs](https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Aweb-platform-tests%2Fwpt+is%3Aopen+label%3Awai-aria%2Caccname&type=pullrequests)
- 18:05:09 [jamesn]
- agenda+ [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates)
- 18:05:10 [jamesn]
- agenda+ [Add `nameFrom: heading` steps to computation after spec addition ARIA PR #1860 is reviewed.](https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/182)
- 18:05:10 [jamesn]
- agenda+ [ARIAMixin has many integer attributes with string types and uses DOMString? incorrectly](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1110)
- 18:05:18 [jamesn]
- agenda+ Daylight savings time
- 18:05:21 [keithamus]
- present+
- 18:05:30 [dmontalvo]
- present+ Daniel
- 18:05:43 [sarah]
- sarah has joined #aria
- 18:06:05 [spectranaut_]
- scribe: spectranaut
- 18:06:09 [spectranaut_]
- scribe: spectranaut_
- 18:06:13 [spectranaut_]
- zakim, next item
- 18:06:13 [Zakim]
- agendum 1 -- [New Issue Triage](https://bit.ly/3TkKoJo) -- taken up [from jamesn]
- 18:06:43 [sarah]
- present+
- 18:06:44 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: 2140 on aria
- 18:06:57 [spectranaut_]
- https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2140
- 18:07:52 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: any comments on this...?
- 18:08:15 [CurtBellew]
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- 18:08:19 [CurtBellew]
- present +
- 18:08:25 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: this sounds editorial. its allowed in other areas, I think its a bug in that one sentence
- 18:09:01 [spectranaut_]
- aardrian: I could do this
- 18:09:40 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2137
- 18:10:32 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: we are going to remove "orphan" role tests to some tests to a tentative file... this is not something that is actually speced in ARIA
- 18:10:55 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: orphan tests are gridcells that are not in a row or table
- 18:11:12 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: though these are author errors, we do not make clear what the user agent should return in these scenarios
- 18:11:29 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: should it be left to implementation detail? there are differences in the implementations
- 18:11:44 [scotto]
- q+
- 18:11:59 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: the aria working group should decide what to do. this might have html-aam downstream work
- 18:12:21 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: should we agenda for further discussion?
- 18:12:23 [scotto]
- q-
- 18:12:28 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: probably also a deep dive candidate
- 18:12:43 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/223
- 18:13:02 [scotto]
- was only going to comment on the fact that i agree. html aam work. there are already some instances of contextual roles exactly about orphaned content
- 18:13:10 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: should we leave this going in discussion between scott and james teh?
- 18:13:27 [spectranaut_]
- scotto: one of the reasons this is coming up because we keep punting association list down the road
- 18:13:39 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: yeah... ok... well.. should we talk about again?
- 18:14:14 [spectranaut_]
- scotto: doesn't need a deep dive. I think last we talked about it, detailed lists should just be lists. whether we do role description, I'm unsure. but we should finish discussion
- 18:14:29 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: agenda'd
- 18:14:51 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2135
- 18:14:57 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: should we agenda?
- 18:15:02 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: yeah I think so
- 18:15:10 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: dominic should be there for the discussion
- 18:15:46 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/535
- 18:15:54 [spectranaut_]
- scotto: I filled this for myself
- 18:16:14 [spectranaut_]
- scotto: to see if anything needs to be mentioned in the naming steps.. finally putting together wpt for minimal role stuff
- 18:16:25 [spectranaut_]
- scotto: then I saw this should statement
- 18:16:46 [spectranaut_]
- scotto: how is naming handled for things that have draggable attribute?
- 18:17:01 [spectranaut_]
- adam: does putting draggable make it focusable?
- 18:17:12 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: no, it doesn't even make it draggable
- 18:17:38 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: complications with that are why we dropped the aria properties
- 18:17:55 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/534
- 18:18:24 [spectranaut_]
- scotto: val assigned her self to make platform bugs, we should do any more work on this until those things land
- 18:18:41 [spectranaut_]
- zakim, next item
- 18:18:41 [Zakim]
- agendum 2 -- [New PR Triage](https://bit.ly/3wGCsJL) -- taken up [from jamesn]
- 18:19:16 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2134
- 18:19:39 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: two approving PRs, I think we can merge
- 18:20:35 [spectranaut_]
- zakim, next item
- 18:20:35 [Zakim]
- agendum 3 -- [WPT Open PRs](https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Aweb-platform-tests%2Fwpt+is%3Aopen+label%3Awai-aria%2Caccname&type=pullrequests) -- taken up [from jamesn]
- 18:21:16 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: I'm working with anne on: https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt/pull/44971
- 18:21:40 [spectranaut_]
- Adam_Page: this one is still draft: https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt/pull/44965
- 18:21:53 [scotto]
- did i do something wrong for https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt/pull/44934 to not show up in this list?
- 18:22:15 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: I'll review this one and merge https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt/pull/44600
- 18:22:35 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: unless the removed tests should be put in tentative
- 18:22:40 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: they look fine to remove to me
- 18:23:04 [StefanS]
- StefanS has joined #aria
- 18:23:10 [StefanS]
- present+
- 18:25:32 [spectranaut_]
- zakim, next item
- 18:25:32 [Zakim]
- agendum 4 -- [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates) -- taken up [from jamesn]
- 18:25:36 [jamesn]
- agenda?
- 18:26:26 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: nothing to schedule for next week or following week
- 18:26:30 [spectranaut_]
- zakim, take up item 7
- 18:26:30 [Zakim]
- agendum 7 -- Daylight savings time -- taken up [from jamesn]
- 18:26:55 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: if you are outside of the US and canada, the meeting time will shift
- 18:27:14 [spectranaut_]
- for the time for the next week, if you don't have daylight savings time
- 18:27:36 [spectranaut_]
- zakim, take up item 5
- 18:27:36 [Zakim]
- agendum 5 -- [Add `nameFrom: heading` steps to computation after spec addition ARIA PR #1860 is reviewed.](https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/182) -- taken up [from jamesn]
- 18:28:39 [spectranaut_]
- to discuss this comment: https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/182#issuecomment-1936015290
- 18:29:20 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: to describe briefly, the first heading will be the first to contribute to the name
- 18:29:35 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: but depth first search will slow down name computation
- 18:29:45 [Ray_Schwartz_]
- Ray_Schwartz_ has joined #ARIA
- 18:29:47 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: I think the user would notice on all of these roles
- 18:30:06 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: there is another search, iterative deepening first search
- 18:30:24 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: this will work most of the time, but there are examples which really don't make sense
- 18:30:37 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: see scott's examples
- 18:30:47 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: this may or may not be an edge case
- 18:31:26 [spectranaut_]
- s/he first heading will be the first to contribute to the name/the first heading is expected to contribute to the name from authors probably/
- 18:31:44 [jamesn]
- q?
- 18:31:50 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: we need consensus from wg and implementers because of the performance hit
- 18:32:00 [jamesn]
- q+
- 18:32:21 [spectranaut_]
- scotto: the issue is that I understand what james is saying, I don't want a performance hit, but I can't say these are edge cases, I see these patterns everywhere
- 18:32:48 [spectranaut_]
- scotto: I found three sites that would have unexpected headings for the name of the article
- 18:33:01 [spectranaut_]
- scotto: they are using the mark up pattern that html says they should use
- 18:33:10 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: they are using the hgroup?
- 18:33:16 [spectranaut_]
- scotto: some people are using the hgroup
- 18:33:31 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: on a lot of sites there are lots of extraneous divs
- 18:33:42 [spectranaut_]
- scotto: I would expect divs without roles to be ignored
- 18:33:57 [spectranaut_]
- scotto: but what about div tab index -1?
- 18:34:14 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: I would need verify but I don't think that would improve the performance
- 18:34:37 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: deep vs breadth is the critical part, parsing the nodes and ignoring them won't help
- 18:35:01 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: the critical blockers, we need to hear from chromium and gecko
- 18:35:24 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: if they come back and say "eh it's not much of a problem", then I'll dig deeper into webkit and get some numbers
- 18:35:59 [jamesn]
- ack me
- 18:36:01 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: it seems like the alternative proposal has too many weird consequences... with unexpected names occurring frequently. didn't apple already implement something similar for articles?
- 18:36:47 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: I filled the orig bug a few years ago, but i said the spec should be more permissive in the way we choose the name. voiceover was naming things based on what it knew was a heading inside. webkit obscured some extraneous divs. voiceover's search was fast enough
- 18:37:09 [jamesn]
- qv?
- 18:37:55 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: sounds like something you don't want, iterative deepening, so maybe this is a choice between standard depth first search or scrapping name from heading?
- 18:38:44 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: you are doing something with html according to specification, and you will get something unexpected
- 18:39:09 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: I'll change the PR to use deep first search, and then it will unblock implementaitons
- 18:39:21 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: then we can investigate the performance cost
- 18:40:01 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: unless the web engines are conscious about potential perf costs, the change can include a way to measure the change
- 18:40:26 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: I'm curious about.. aren't we calculating the accname for all the elements anyway?
- 18:40:38 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: we don't compute the name until we land on it
- 18:40:48 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: is that why it takes so long for the acc tree to come up?
- 18:41:08 [scotto]
- q+
- 18:41:19 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: in the dev tools, it takes a while because it's spinning up the acc tree and doing additional calls
- 18:41:21 [jamesn]
- q+
- 18:41:48 [jamesn]
- ack scotto
- 18:41:51 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: when you land on a article, you have to go through the WHOLE subtree to rule out name from heading
- 18:42:08 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: if there is no heading that will take a while
- 18:42:20 [spectranaut_]
- scotto: contextual roles for header/footer/aside, etc
- 18:42:45 [spectranaut_]
- scotto: talking to aaron lev, aaron was saying that if we spec this to be based on the acc tree rather than the dom nodes, it would be more performant
- 18:43:13 [spectranaut_]
- scotto: that is where I was coming from, if this calculated in the acc tree instead of the dom tree
- 18:43:50 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: that is a good idea, but because we don't have a standard accessibility tree between browsers it might lead to difference. I don't think we could implement it yet reliably
- 18:44:07 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: if you are talking to him can you post the comment?
- 18:44:18 [spectranaut_]
- scotto: I'll saw what I remembered, and I'll cc him in
- 18:44:46 [jamesn]
- ack me
- 18:45:23 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: I know this is something that might not want to do because it is hard to explain, seems like 99% of our use case or more would be covered if we did depth first search of only 2 deep?
- 18:45:32 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: maybe 75%
- 18:45:44 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: and you add an extra div and it suddenly doesn't work
- 18:45:59 [spectranaut_]
- scotto: and what happens with shadow dom???
- 18:46:40 [spectranaut_]
- zakim, next item
- 18:46:40 [Zakim]
- agendum 4 -- [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates) -- taken up [from jamesn]
- 18:46:50 [spectranaut_]
- zakim, take up item 6
- 18:46:50 [Zakim]
- agendum 6 -- [ARIAMixin has many integer attributes with string types and uses DOMString? incorrectly](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1110) -- taken up [from jamesn]
- 18:47:15 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: is this something we are ever going to do something about?
- 18:48:43 [spectranaut_]
- keithamus: some of the types don't match up.. I'm not sure the risk to make them match up
- 18:49:34 [spectranaut_]
- keithamus: I plan to chip away at this over the next month or so, if we align to the html spec, it would require changes in the browser implementation, which is fine except for compatibility issue. There are certain patterns where developers do feature detection...
- 18:50:00 [spectranaut_]
- keithamus: for anything that isn't enumerated, if you can set it and read it and see whether it is a supported value
- 18:50:12 [spectranaut_]
- keithamus: this needs some careful teasing apart
- 18:50:50 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: this will break existing web pages, its not editorial
- 18:51:04 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: there is a web compat risk
- 18:51:16 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: I handed this off to anne and others because this is a broad discussion
- 18:51:56 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: we reflected all of these as strings for a few years now... and think.. last year gecko implemented to match. we even have wpt tests for it...? I will have to verify
- 18:52:07 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: to get these changes in, we will break a lot
- 18:52:35 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: I don't think we don't have usage information about whether anything will break
- 18:52:48 [spectranaut_]
- keithamus: that is what I was going to div into
- 18:53:13 [spectranaut_]
- keithamus: we incorrectly says "domstring?", there is an editorial change to change from "domstring?" to "domstring"
- 18:53:23 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: the "?" means nullable?
- 18:53:42 [spectranaut_]
- keithamus: yeah, and "domstring?" must be limited to known values, for eample
- 18:53:56 [spectranaut_]
- keithamus: so we need to tweak it for that. but each one needs to be analyzed
- 18:54:06 [spectranaut_]
- keithamus: this is worth weighing up each change
- 18:54:35 [jamesn]
- agenda?
- 18:54:47 [jamesn]
- zakim, drop item 4
- 18:54:47 [Zakim]
- agendum 4, [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates), dropped
- 18:54:52 [jamesn]
- zakim, drop item 7
- 18:54:52 [Zakim]
- agendum 7, Daylight savings time, dropped
- 18:54:52 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: probably it's fine if we change from a nullable to empty string
- 18:55:20 [spectranaut_]
- keithamus: (something about salesforce I didn't catch)
- 18:55:49 [spectranaut_]
- jcraig: I'm fine with domstring? to domstring
- 18:56:15 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: sounds like you are working on this and I really appreciate, this is an area the group has been lacking in expertise
- 18:57:13 [keithamus]
- Salesforce (Nolan Lawson) are concerned about changes to this due to their polyfill, and we don't want to break that.
- 18:58:12 [spectranaut_]
- RRSAgent, make minutes
- 18:58:13 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/07-aria-minutes.html spectranaut_
- 18:59:02 [spectranaut_]
- zakim, end meeting
- 18:59:02 [Zakim]
- As of this point the attendees have been giacomo-petri, Rahim, Adam_Page, Francis_Storr, pkra, katez, scotto, aardrian, keithamus, Daniel, sarah, StefanS
- 18:59:05 [Zakim]
- RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
- 18:59:07 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/07-aria-minutes.html Zakim
- 18:59:12 [Zakim]
- I am happy to have been of service, spectranaut_; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
- 18:59:12 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #aria
- 19:15:39 [bkardell_]
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