W3C

– DRAFT –
(MEETING TITLE)

27 February 2024

Attendees

Present
Daniel, howard-e, Jem, jongund, jugglinmike, siri
Regrets
-
Chair
-
Scribe
jugglinmike

Meeting minutes

<Jem> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/February-27%2C-2024-Agenda

Setup and Review Agenda

Jem: Next meeting: March 5

Jem: Any requests for change to agenda?

Jem: Hearing none, we'll move on

Publication status

Matt_King: The latest skipto with all the parameters in place (so that no more customization is necessary for APG)--that's all deployed

Matt_King: It might be a good idea for some people to peruse the production website today and look at these things to make sure there are no problems with skipto anywhere

Matt_King: It should be the same everywhere, but if there are any idosynchratic problems, we'd like to learn about them

<Jem> https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/apg/about/coverage-and-quality/

Matt_King: Also, the coverage report is going to be generated automatically in response to changes to each page

Matt_King: You'll find the report under the heading titled "Coverage and Quality" on each page

Matt_King: We also had one change to the "sortable tables" example; it's a pretty minor change to the CSS

Matt_King: That's what we got done this month

<Jem> https://deploy-preview-294--aria-practices.netlify.app/aria/apg/patterns/table/examples/sortable-table/

Matt_King: We don't have another publication date set, yet, but we'll choose one as soon as we have a few substantial things to go--hopefully by the end of March

Matt_King: The site is getting better all the time, particularly when it comes to learning about the status of each page

<Jem> https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/apg/patterns/table/examples/sortable-table/

Update on triage process definition

github: w3c/aria-practices#2906

Matt_King: I spent a fair amount of time on this, but I haven't yet addressed everything we dicussed last week. I'm getting close, though

Matt_King: I started working a little more on our labels

Matt_King: I added a label named "ready to prioritize", and I also added labels, "p1", "p2", and "p3"

Matt_King: If something is "ready to prioritize", that means it has completed the "intake" step, and if it's a bug, it has also completed the "bug reproduction documentation" step in the triage process

Matt_King: Once something is prioritized, we would replace the "ready to prioritize" label with either "p1", "p2", or "p3"

Matt_King: I'm still updating the documentation to reflect this

Matt_King: Then it will be ready to go, I think

Matt_King: I need to add labels for issue severity.

Matt_King: I think this will all be done by next week

Jem: Thank you for all the work you've put into the triage process!

Jem: What would be the timeline to start working on triage itself?

Matt_King: I think I'd like try some of it in this meeting today. That will help use ensure that we're all aligned on which issue labels we need

Matt_King: Otherwise, I'll leave it up to you to decide how you want to set up a schedule and how you want to document that schedule

Matt_King: I think it would be possible for you to kick it off next week

Jem: Okay, so who wants to contribute to the triage process?

Matt_King: Last week, we recorded three volunteers, I believe

dmontalvo: I was one of them

Matt_King: My proposal would be that, when people are on rotation (perhaps two times a month), they commit to an hour of independent triage--either the "intake" process or the "bug reproduction" process

Matt_King: Obviously, we don't get bug reports every single week, so eventually, we would be able to begin revisiting prior bug reports using this process

Matt_King: There appear to be about 30 bugs already existing. This means that we could have really solid documentation on them all by some time in June

jongund: How do we sign up? Is there a wiki page?

Jem: I need to create a place to manage this, but I haven't selected one, yet

Jem: Let's use the GitHub Wiki associated with the aria-apg repository

Matt_King: That means folks will need to be comfortable working with GitHub Wikis, but I think that's a reasonable requirement

Fix to make combobox labels clickable

github: w3c/aria-practices#2889

Matt_King: I put this back on the agenda because we were trying to get people to review it last week

Matt_King: I also had a question for jongund

Matt_King: Previously, the label was in a "<label>" element, and now, the label is in a "<div>" element

Matt_King: My question for jongund is: was that change intentional?

jongund: It was. To me, the "<label>" element wasn't doing anything. I thought a "<label>" element with an associated event handler might be misleading for folks reading to code

Matt_King: In the past, we've advocated for using semantic HTML even in the presense of ARIA because the semantic HTML could act as a sort of fallback for browsers/ATs that don't recognize the ARIA

Matt_King: But your thinking is kind of the opposite of that

Matt_King: It's a more pedagogical case

Matt_King: I could see it either way

Jem: As a developer, I'm accustomed to using the semantic elements whenever possible

Matt_King: Right, but jongund's point is that the "<label>" doesn't do anything in this case. The "click" handler could be confusing to readers. This is example code that we're considering, after all

howard-e: From what I've seen, there are more instances of "<div>" elements being modified to support "click" handlers

Jem: I typically write code from a "semantics-first" mindset

jugglinmike: I'm thinking about graceful degradation. Are there any implications to this distinction in cases where there is no event handler (because the JavaScript has not executed, for whatever reason)

dmontalvo: I'm not convinced that this should be changed from "<label>" to "<div>"

jongund: "<label>" is a special thing--it does something when used correctly

jongund: In the ARIA spec, the group decided not to have a role named "label" because it wouldn't do anything.

jongund: If we say that you should use the "<label>" element here, then all our examples that used "aria-labelledby" had better point to an HTML "<label>" element

Matt_King: I'll have to do some analysis, but I think jongund's making a pretty solid argument (because I don't think a change like the one he's just described would be an improvement)

dmontalvo: Thanks jongund, I wasn't seeing the "aria-labelledby" attribute on the "<div>" element. That's an important aspect!

dmontalvo: I withdraw my earlier comment

Jem: Since we're using "aria-labelledby", using a "<label>" element doesn't add any value

Jem: Could we maybe add a note as a comment?

Matt_King: This is covered by the ARIA documentation

Matt_King: So I think jongund is helping us to be more consistent with what's already been done in other examples

Matt_King: It sounds like we have consensus

Matt_King: We need reviewers on this patch

Matt_King: We want a code reviewer and a functional review, and that's it

Matt_King: We don't need a test reviewer because this doesn't impact the tests

siri: I can perform a functional review with Android

Matt_King: Great!

Matt_King: And I will re-review based on this conversation today

Matt_King: I guess that's enough

Triage new issues

<Jem> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/Issue-Triage-Process

Failing dialog-modal_datepicker.js test

Matt_King: This is coming from within the Task Force, so we don't need the "feedback" label

Matt_King: Maybe I should change the definition of "bug" because this is related to the testing of the example, and that means the "bug" label is appropriate

Matt_King: We need to generally extend the language in the process documentation around "pages" to include "site design" and "infrastructure"

Jem: I'll add the label named "regression-testing" for now

Matt_King: howard-e provided excellent "steps to reproduce" in this case, but we should still assign someone to verify

Jem: I will assign myself

Matt_King: Great!

Matt_King: Just from triaging a single issue, we've already found several changes that need to be made to the wiki page

Matt_King: We'll get there bit by bit

Jem: The documentation is already good--it just needs a little more detail

Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by scribe.perl version 221 (Fri Jul 21 14:01:30 2023 UTC).

Diagnostics

Succeeded 2 times: s/labeledby/labelledby/g

Maybe present: dmontalvo, Matt_King

All speakers: dmontalvo, howard-e, Jem, jongund, jugglinmike, Matt_King, siri

Active on IRC: dmontalvo, howard-e, Jem, jongund, jugglinmike, siri