14:47:20 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
14:47:24 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/02/23-rdf-star-irc
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14:47:46 <TallTed> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:47:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/23-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
14:47:49 <TallTed> rrsagent, make logs public
14:49:04 <TallTed> meeting: RDF-star Semantics TF
14:49:06 <TallTed> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/02/22-rdf-star-minutes.html
14:49:08 <TallTed> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/02/29-rdf-star-minutes.html
14:49:10 <TallTed> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/6d0cd306-0be8-4267-865a-6272cc8d9da4/20240223T100000/
14:49:10 <agendabot> clear agenda
14:49:10 <agendabot> agenda+ Discussion on the semantics for option 3: -> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/RDF%E2%80%90star-semantics:-option-3 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/RDF%E2%80%90star-semantics:-option-3
14:50:18 <TallTed> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:50:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/23-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
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15:02:11 <TallTed> present+
15:02:19 <Souri> present+
15:02:40 <AndyS> zakim, what meeting is this?
15:02:40 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, AndyS.
15:03:07 <tl> tl has joined #rdf-star
15:03:07 <TallTed> Zakim, this is RDF-star Semantics TF
15:03:07 <Zakim> got it, TallTed
15:03:19 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:03:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/23-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
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15:03:27 <enrico> present+
15:03:32 <AndyS> present+
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15:04:14 <AndyS> zakim, who is here?
15:04:14 <Zakim> Present: TallTed, Souri, enrico, AndyS
15:04:16 <Zakim> On IRC I see ora, doerthe, enrico, gkellogg, tl, Souri, AndyS, Zakim, RRSAgent, TallTed, gb, pchampin, driib, ktk, gtw, Tpt, AnthonySpencer, VladimirAlexiev, SintayewGashaw,
15:04:16 <Zakim> ... Timothe, smoothsalt, joraboi445, rhiaro, csarven, agendabot
15:04:25 <gkellogg> present+
15:04:34 <doerthe> present+
15:04:39 <tl> present+
15:04:42 <ora> present+
15:05:19 <ora> chair: ora
15:05:32 <TallTed> agenda?
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15:05:44 <niklasl> present+
15:07:47 <TallTed> scribe+
15:07:47 <TallTed> enrico: proposal is to formalize full transparency
15:08:29 <Souri> q+
15:10:53 <TallTed> i/chair: ora/Topic: RDF-star semantics: option 3 — https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/RDF%E2%80%90star-semantics:-option-3
15:11:19 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:11:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/23-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
15:12:23 <ora> ack Souri
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15:12:52 <olaf> present+
15:12:52 <TallTed> Souri: to be clear, we are not using the term "quoted triple" any longer?
15:13:04 <TallTed> enrico: I'm using random names for that concept
15:14:28 <tl> q+
15:15:10 <ora> ack tl
15:15:25 <AndyS> q+
15:16:22 <niklasl> Option 3 does not allow triple terms in the subject position.
15:17:38 <AndyS> There are different ways to have that effect.
15:17:47 <niklasl> That is tantamount to literals in the subject position.
15:19:05 <niklasl> q+
15:19:10 <AndyS> In semantics, already have literals as subject (rdfs3 rule in Semantics doc)
15:19:14 <ora> ack AndyS
15:20:42 <niklasl> https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-concepts/#section-triples
15:20:43 <niklasl> An RDF triple consists of three components:  the subject, which is an IRI or a blank node
15:20:59 <ora> ack niklasl
15:23:14 <AndyS> q+
15:23:49 <niklasl> That
15:24:08 <niklasl> That's like rdf:type "x" . Would be nice to prevent, of course.
15:24:40 <Souri> q+
15:25:06 <doerthe> q+
15:26:44 <ora> ack AndyS
15:28:21 <olaf> Unfortunately, I have to drop for a another meeting.
15:29:48 <ora> ack Souri
15:31:17 <ora> q+
15:32:30 <ora> ack doerthe
15:32:33 <niklasl> I *require* limiting triple terms to the object position, and *would like* to limit them to the "nameOf", but that has no precedent (cf. rdf:type "x"...).
15:32:58 <tl> q+
15:33:11 <ora> ack ora
15:34:30 <niklasl> Also +100 to Souri's point that triple terms adds complexity, let's add as little as is necessary.
15:36:04 <tl> q-
15:36:18 <enrico> q+
15:37:06 <Souri> q+
15:37:12 <niklasl> q+
15:37:42 <niklasl> The abstract syntax enforces things.
15:37:47 <ora> ack enrico
15:42:26 <tl> q+
15:42:50 <ora> ack Souri
15:45:00 <niklasl> How is this different from generalized RDF?
15:45:22 <niklasl> https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf11-concepts/#section-generalized-rdf
15:46:06 <niklasl> > Generalized RDF triples, graphs, and datasets differ from normative RDF triples, graphs, and datasets only by allowing IRIs, blank nodes and literals to appear in any position, i.e., as subject, predicate, object or graph names.
15:46:28 <ora> ack niklasl
15:46:33 <doerthe> do we ignore the non wellformed parts of a graph or do we reject the whole graph?
15:48:45 <niklasl> Adding triple terms imply adding those to that mix. But it does not imply allowing triple terms as subjects.
15:48:49 <ora> ack tl
15:49:34 <enrico> q+
15:51:58 <niklasl> Of course I see the philosophical "purity" of e.g. <<(<s> <p> <o>)>> a rdf:Triple . It's the same purity as "x" a rdf:Literal . I don't see the *practical value* of it; on the contrary.
15:52:35 <niklasl> Literals are practical things. Only blank nodes are "pure".
15:52:37 <ora> ack enrico
15:55:09 <niklasl> q+
15:56:05 <ora> ack niklasl
15:59:20 <doerthe> q+
15:59:49 <ora> ack doerthe
16:02:05 <enrico> q+
16:04:27 <Souri> q+
16:05:16 <ora> ack enrico
16:05:27 <enrico> rdf:type rdf:type rdf:type .
16:06:28 <niklasl> That is simply nominal nonsense.
16:12:43 <enrico> q+
16:12:53 <ora> ack Souri
16:13:03 <Souri> Simplify the proposed grammar?
16:13:11 <Souri> subject          ::= iri | BlankNode | identifier  object           ::= iri | BlankNode | literal | identifier  triple           ::= identifier rdf:nameOf tripleTerm identifier       ::= iri | BlankNode
16:14:20 <doerthe> q+
16:14:43 <niklasl> I'll write that out line by line:
16:14:48 <niklasl> subject          ::= iri | BlankNode | identifier
16:14:54 <niklasl> object           ::= iri | BlankNode | literal | identifier
16:14:58 <niklasl> triple           ::= identifier rdf:nameOf tripleTerm
16:15:02 <niklasl> identifier       ::= iri | BlankNode
16:16:15 <tl> +1
16:16:32 <ora> ack enrico
16:17:16 <TallTed> that reduces to
16:17:16 <TallTed> subject          ::= identifier
16:17:16 <TallTed> object           ::= literal | identifier
16:17:16 <TallTed> triple           ::= identifier rdf:nameOf tripleTerm
16:17:16 <TallTed> identifier       ::= iri | BlankNode
16:18:49 <ora> ack doerthe
16:21:34 <ora> q+
16:23:08 <ora> ack ora
16:24:36 <AndyS> q+
16:24:49 <ora> ack AndyS
16:25:30 <niklasl> q+
16:26:48 <ora> ack niklasl
16:27:54 <AndyS> Preference for "well-formedness" approach over abstract syntax with this situation coded into it.
16:28:04 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:28:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/23-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:28:42 <TallTed> Zakim, end meeting
16:28:42 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been TallTed, Souri, enrico, AndyS, gkellogg, doerthe, tl, ora, niklasl, olaf
16:28:42 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:28:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/23-rdf-star-minutes.html Zakim
16:29:18 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, TallTed; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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