17:56:24 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:56:28 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/02/22-aria-irc
17:56:28 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:56:29 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
17:56:33 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
17:56:33 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
17:57:21 <agendabot> Sorry, I did not find an agenda.
17:57:36 <jamesn> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2024Feb/0013.html
17:57:36 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:57:36 <agendabot> agenda+ [New Issue Triage](http://tinyurl.com/5abvx8pk)
17:57:36 <agendabot> agenda+ [New PR Triage](http://tinyurl.com/5ykwjkps)
17:57:36 <agendabot> agenda+ [WPT Open PRs](https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Aweb-platform-tests%2Fwpt+is%3Aopen+label%3Awai-aria%2Caccname&type=pullrequests)
17:57:37 <agendabot> agenda+ [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates)
17:57:39 <spectranaut_> spectranaut_ has joined #aria
17:57:40 <agendabot> agenda+ [Final Proposal: AccName Role Traversal Proposal](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1821#issuecomment-1946338425)
17:57:43 <agendabot> agenda+ [Status Update: Consider providing a way for authors to customize the announcement of state](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2085)
17:57:46 <agendabot> agenda+ [Add `nameFrom: heading` steps to computation after spec addition ARIA PR #1860 is reviewed.](https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/182#issuecomment-1946855168)
17:57:50 <agendabot> agenda+ [Status Update: ARIAMixin has many integer attributes with string types and uses DOMString? incorrectly](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1110)
17:57:53 <agendabot> agenda+ [Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group](https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/aria/) ([View Calendar](https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/aria/calendar/))
17:58:48 <Adam_Page> Adam_Page has joined #aria
18:00:38 <Francis_Storr> Francis_Storr has joined #aria
18:00:56 <Francis_Storr> present+
18:01:16 <spectranaut_> present+
18:01:34 <giacomo-petri> giacomo-petri has joined #aria
18:01:42 <giacomo-petri> present+
18:02:16 <Adam_Page> present+
18:02:45 <pkra> pkra has joined #aria
18:03:11 <Adam_Page> scribe: Adam_Page
18:03:51 <Rahim> present+
18:06:44 <StefanS> StefanS has joined #aria
18:07:01 <StefanS> present+
18:07:26 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:07:26 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- [New Issue Triage](http://tinyurl.com/5abvx8pk) -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:08:27 <Adam_Page> jamesn: aria/#2124
18:09:25 <Adam_Page> pkra: deals with how to use aria-owns on elements without children
18:09:35 <Adam_Page> pkra: spec should be updated to reflect what browsers are doing
18:09:42 <Adam_Page> pkra: but we need to confirm that
18:10:07 <Adam_Page> scotto: I linked a related issue for ARIA in HTML
18:10:09 <sarah> sarah has joined #aria
18:10:28 <Adam_Page> pkra: there’s also an editorial part to it because of very old language
18:10:43 <Adam_Page> pkra: will bring up on edior’s call
18:11:12 <Adam_Page> pkra: I’ll take assignment
18:11:14 <Adam_Page> scotto: me too
18:11:36 <Adam_Page> jamesn: html-aam/#532
18:11:43 <Adam_Page> scotto: no triage needed, this is for me
18:11:59 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:11:59 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- [New PR Triage](http://tinyurl.com/5ykwjkps) -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:12:15 <Adam_Page> zakim, close this item
18:12:15 <Zakim> agendum 2 closed
18:12:16 <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:12:16 <Zakim> 3. [WPT Open PRs](https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Aweb-platform-tests%2Fwpt+is%3Aopen+label%3Awai-aria%2Caccname&type=pullrequests) [from agendabot]
18:12:20 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:12:20 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- [WPT Open PRs](https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Aweb-platform-tests%2Fwpt+is%3Aopen+label%3Awai-aria%2Caccname&type=pullrequests) -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:12:53 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: we talked about most of these last week
18:13:15 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria
18:13:24 <Matt_King> present+
18:13:36 <Adam_Page> zakim, close this item
18:13:36 <Zakim> agendum 3 closed
18:13:37 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:13:37 <Zakim> 4. [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates) [from agendabot]
18:13:40 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:13:40 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- [Deep Dive planning](https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates) -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:13:44 <siri> siri has joined #aria
18:13:49 <BGaraventa> BGaraventa has joined #aria
18:14:12 <Adam_Page> jamesn: we had a tentative plan for value calculation
18:14:24 <Adam_Page> ... but may not need a deep dive after all
18:15:06 <BGaraventa> present+ bgaraventa
18:15:46 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: I recall thinking that a little reorganization would be good, but it’s not necessarily complicated
18:15:48 <sarah> q+
18:16:00 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: we say how to calculate value in the combo box spec
18:16:14 <Adam_Page> ... but the way it’s written is confusing, and it’s not consistent with similar components, like textbox
18:16:23 <Adam_Page> ... so the idea is to make sure there’s a clear definition in one place
18:16:32 <Adam_Page> ... and then it can be referenced from combobox, textbox, etc.
18:16:49 <Adam_Page> ... the current wording is a bit hacky
18:16:58 <jamesn> ack sarah
18:17:01 <BGaraventa> q+
18:17:06 <scotto> scotto has joined #aria
18:17:11 <scotto> present+
18:17:21 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
18:17:25 <Adam_Page> sarah: I also have some context and remember when it first came up, so would be happy to help
18:17:28 <Adam_Page> ... I’ll take assignment
18:17:36 <sarah> ack me
18:17:40 <sarah> present+
18:17:40 <jamesn> ack BGaraventa
18:18:17 <scotto> q+
18:18:37 <Adam_Page> jamesn: we need a reliable way to test this
18:18:38 <jamesn> ack scotto
18:18:50 <Adam_Page> scotto: I still question whether this belongs in accname
18:19:13 <Adam_Page> ... can’t it just be a section in the ARIA spec?
18:19:31 <Adam_Page> jamesn: the accname spec will need to reference this value calculation algorithm
18:19:53 <Adam_Page> ... why don’t we _start_ in the accname spec, and then decide whether it’d be sensible to relocate it
18:21:03 <BGaraventa> q+
18:21:04 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: the original motivation for putting it in accname is because the value calculation itself wants to reference a part of the name calculation
18:21:33 <Adam_Page> ... and until we do this thoroughly, we won’t know how much of the name calculation we’ll end up using
18:21:38 <jamesn> ack BGaraventa
18:22:02 <Adam_Page> BGaraventa: it comes into play in the recursion
18:22:09 <Adam_Page> jamesn: okay, any other deep dives?
18:22:40 <Adam_Page> ... scotto, you‘ve got the other two
18:22:52 <Adam_Page> ... but no urgency to schedule a deep dive right away
18:24:18 <Adam_Page> sarah: I’ve got a potential deep dive topic for aria-maxlength — aria/#1199
18:26:03 <Adam_Page> ... useful both for conveying max length upon focus, but also if you want a UX where assistive tech would “bonk” when a user’s input reaches it
18:26:14 <Adam_Page> jamesn: can we fill a deep dive with this?
18:26:38 <Adam_Page> sarah: it’s surprisingly tricky
18:26:59 <Adam_Page> jamesn: we should have more documented material & homework before we schedule the deep dive
18:27:05 <Adam_Page> sarah: okay, I’ll add some more information
18:27:11 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:27:11 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- [Final Proposal: AccName Role Traversal Proposal](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1821#issuecomment-1946338425) -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:28:13 <Matt_King> q+
18:30:01 <Adam_Page> scotto: this is essentially limited to hyperlinks
18:30:32 <Adam_Page> ... so the basic idea is we add a note: “hey browsers, in this scenario you can use innerText” for accname
18:31:00 <Adam_Page> ... where browsers fail to provide a proper accname in these cases, assistive tech work around it
18:32:04 <jamesn> ack Matt_King
18:34:43 <cyns> q+
18:35:35 <jamesn> qv?
18:37:25 <Adam_Page> scotto : because of the hyperlink’s transparent content model, if it’s filled only with things that have name from author, then it stops the accname traversal
18:37:32 <jamesn> ack cyns
18:37:54 <siri> present+
18:38:00 <Adam_Page> cyns: I’ve pinged AaronLev, but this feels icky to me to not have the name be correct in the a11y tree
18:38:42 <Adam_Page> ... need to see how feasible this is, but need to see if we could reinterpret name from author elements inside hyperlink as generic
18:38:50 <Adam_Page> scotto: we did discuss and abandon that
18:39:03 <Adam_Page> cyns: the whole point of these mappings was that we would eliminate magic
18:39:07 <jamesn> qv?
18:39:33 <jamesn> agenda?
18:39:44 <aardrian> aardrian has joined #aria
18:39:50 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: let’s say we have a large table inside a hyperlink
18:39:52 <jamesn> zakim, drop item 9
18:39:52 <Zakim> agendum 9, [Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group](https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/aria/) ([View Calendar](https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/aria/calendar/)), dropped
18:40:03 <Adam_Page> ... and the table has a 3-word name from author
18:40:11 <Adam_Page> ... then doesn’t all the content of the table disappear from the accname?
18:40:12 <cyns> hyperlinks couldn't have block content inside them when we wrote these rules. HTML changed the definition of link, and we haven't fully caught up
18:41:08 <Adam_Page> scotto: if the hyperlink was forcibly given a name or calculated from one of the name from author, then the contents of the hyperlink would just be squashed and AT would no longer be able to get to it
18:41:22 <cyns> q+
18:41:30 <jamesn> q+ Bryan
18:41:32 <Adam_Page> ... so this is a brittle situation and we need to be careful not to introduce a breaking change in the spec
18:41:57 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: do we expose all the semantics of a hyperlink’s children inside the a11y tree?
18:42:14 <Adam_Page> scotto: yes, but for the instance where hyperlinks are explicitly named
18:42:55 <jamesn> ack cyns
18:43:10 <Adam_Page> cyns: it’s more than ickiness, it’s hard to debug, hard to understand what’s going on
18:43:21 <Adam_Page> ... (the absence of the accname in the a11y tree)
18:43:28 <jamesn> i agree
18:43:38 <jamesn> ack BGaraventa
18:43:43 <jamesn> ack bryan
18:43:56 <jamesn> agenda?
18:44:01 <Adam_Page> BGaraventa: there is merit to having a careful algorithm
18:44:30 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: the intent is just to make a whole bunch of content clickable
18:44:36 <Adam_Page> ... but there’s only one href for the whole thing
18:45:00 <Adam_Page> ... and the SR user gets zero benefit from every bit of content being enclosed by the hyperlink element
18:45:22 <BGaraventa> q+
18:45:25 <Adam_Page> ... it’s uncertain what the ideal SR UX is here
18:45:58 <Adam_Page> ... the intent of the author is completely masked by this markup approach
18:46:10 <jamesn> ack BGaraventa
18:46:39 <Adam_Page> BGaraventa: I’ve also experienced when a link encloses 5 images, and it presents as 5 links that all go to the same place
18:47:27 <Adam_Page> ... this only matters for inner elements that do not support name from content
18:47:43 <Adam_Page> ... so a spec update should center around that
18:47:52 <Adam_Page> ... and accommodate traversal
18:49:19 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: we shouldn’t force screen readers to pick up the slack for browser’s responsibility
18:49:50 <Adam_Page> ... a browser should be able to deterministically calculate accname for this situation
18:52:16 <jamesn> qv?
18:53:09 <Adam_Page> ... it’s important to prioritize parity for situations like this — how does a sighted user interpret a hyperlink filled with rich semantic content, and what is a comparable AT experience?
18:54:20 <Adam_Page> jamesn: we’ve had a lot of discussion and no consensus
18:54:32 <Adam_Page> ... let’s move the discussion into aria/#1821
18:55:01 <Adam_Page> ... let’s answer scotto’s proposal and, if needed, make a counterproposal
18:55:13 <Adam_Page> Matt_King: this feels like a HTML problem
18:55:15 <Adam_Page> scotto: absolutely, yes
18:55:38 <Adam_Page> jamesn: the same problem can exist with an ARIA pattern though
18:56:06 <jamesn> q?
18:56:26 <Adam_Page> jamesn: let’s continue the discussion in aria/#1821
18:56:29 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:56:29 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- [Status Update: Consider providing a way for authors to customize the announcement of state](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2085) -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:57:00 <Adam_Page> jamesn: there are additional questions in the issue since we last talked
18:57:02 <Adam_Page> ... where are we with this?
18:57:06 <siri> siri has joined #aria
18:57:27 <Adam_Page> scotto: someone proposed using `aria-valuetext`, and that’s intriguing
18:57:37 <Adam_Page> ... allowing it to be used on more roles
18:57:55 <Adam_Page> jamesn: seems like the issue is stuck, would anyone like to take assignment?
18:58:11 <Adam_Page> giacomo-petri: we need to make a decision if we want to proceed with that
18:58:29 <Adam_Page> ... there are instances where the switch button doesn’t mean on/off
18:58:51 <Adam_Page> ... for example, a switch for centimeters vs inches
18:59:08 <Adam_Page> jamesn: that approach sounds reasonable
18:59:11 <Adam_Page> ... how about a draft PR?
18:59:32 <Adam_Page> giacomo-petri: yes, I’ll take assignment of that
18:59:58 <Adam_Page> zakim, end meeting
18:59:58 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Francis_Storr, spectranaut_, giacomo-petri, Adam_Page, Rahim, StefanS, Matt_King, bgaraventa, scotto, sarah, siri
19:00:00 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
19:00:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/22-aria-minutes.html Zakim
19:00:08 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Adam_Page; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
19:00:08 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria