15:01:34 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wot-td
15:01:38 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/02/21-wot-td-irc
15:01:50 <kaz> meeting: WoT-WG - TD-TF - Slot 1
15:03:18 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Ege_Korkan, Kunihiko_Toumura, Mahda_Noura
15:03:25 <kaz> chair: Ege
15:03:39 <ktoumura> ktoumura has joined #wot-td
15:03:52 <kaz> agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#February_21_and_February_22%2C_2024
15:04:01 <dape> dape has joined #wot-td
15:04:06 <kaz> present+ Daniel_Peintner
15:05:44 <cris_> cris_ has joined #wot-td
15:06:18 <luca_barbato> luca_barbato has joined #wot-td
15:06:27 <kaz> present+ Cristiano_Aguzzi, Luca_Barbato
15:06:56 <cris_> topic: Agenda
15:07:06 <cris_> ege: I want to talk about the managment topic
15:07:17 <kaz> i|want|-> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#February_21_and_February_22%2C_2024 Agenda for today|
15:07:21 <cris_> ... otherwise I think tomorrow we can go with the Binding templates
15:07:31 <cris_> topic: Minutes review
15:07:35 <cris_> ege: they are good
15:07:44 <cris_> ... we discussed profile
15:07:49 <cris_> ... for the whole call
15:07:52 <cris_> ... any remarks?
15:07:56 <kaz> i|they are|-> https://www.w3.org/2024/02/14-wot-td-minutes.html Feb-14|
15:08:01 <cris_> ... minutes approved
15:08:22 <kaz> present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima
15:08:48 <cris_> topic: toolchain requirements
15:09:05 <kaz> i/tool/topic: TM namespace/
15:09:15 <cris_> ege: we should agree on which toolchain to use
15:09:19 <kaz> i/tool/ek: Kaz to update the redirection setting/
15:09:38 <cris_> s/toolchain to use/requirements in general/
15:09:58 <cris_> ege: I want to record the "wishes" we have
15:10:05 <cris_> ... I started from the outputs
15:10:54 <cris_> ... linkML can be a type of intput but we need a sort of templates
15:11:04 <kaz> i|we should|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1975 PR 1975 - Toolchain requirements|
15:11:05 <cris_> ... with it we don't support human readable text
15:11:16 <cris_> ... then we need to agree on Overall Requirements
15:11:37 <cris_> ... we should allow people with no expertise to contribute to our work
15:11:51 <cris_> ... even with the documentation is not really clear
15:11:53 <cris_> q+
15:12:08 <cris_> ... wishes don't need to be realistic
15:14:23 <cris_> cris: well know libraries can help to onboard
15:14:49 <cris_> ... and observability is very important. It means that if something goes wrong we should be able to debug it quickly
15:15:15 <cris_> ack c
15:15:22 <kaz> q+
15:15:38 <cris_> mahda: +1
15:15:58 <cris_> ... especially regarding the template language
15:16:18 <cris_> ... stll is difficult and used by a minority
15:16:54 <cris_> kaz: the direction is good. But we might want to clarify the input and output one by one more
15:17:05 <cris_> ... you already mentioned index.html as target
15:17:34 <cris_> ... we can use smaller multiple tools which handle one output type at a time
15:18:05 <mahda-noura> q+
15:18:05 <cris_> ... I prefer combination of smaller tools
15:18:47 <cris_> ege: the current tooling is a bunch a small tool together
15:19:10 <cris_> ... the problem is that we can't maintain a single source of truth
15:19:25 <cris_> ... it would be possible if the tools are really chained together
15:20:06 <dape> q+
15:20:06 <cris_> q?
15:21:00 <cris_> kaz: are you expecting some specific programming language? that's ok but at this stage we should focus on input or output parameters
15:21:08 <cris_> ... and their data format
15:21:52 <cris_> ege: the data format is dependent on the tool
15:22:06 <cris_> ... but the data model can be decided before hand
15:22:15 <cris_> kaz: we can start with bigger chunks
15:22:53 <cris_> ... like starting form the index.template.html and turtle file
15:23:07 <cris_> ... and think about the outputs
15:23:46 <kaz> s/form/from/
15:23:49 <cris_> ege: I'm afraid that using this approach we will end up with the current situation
15:24:04 <kaz> q?
15:24:07 <kaz> ack k
15:24:08 <kaz> q+
15:24:31 <cris_> mahda: not mixing up languages, also keep an eye on dependency between the files
15:25:07 <cris_> ... example ttl files that has HTML tags in the descriptions
15:25:11 <cris_> cris: +1
15:25:49 <cris_> mahda: it would be great to have documentation about CI tooling
15:26:02 <cris_> ... we can check the configuration files
15:26:10 <cris_> ... but it is time consuming
15:26:14 <cris_> ege: we can use your report
15:26:18 <cris_> ... but we can improve it
15:26:25 <kaz> s/example ttl/an example is a TTL file/
15:26:54 <cris_> q?
15:27:04 <kaz> ack mah
15:27:35 <cris_> dape: combining tools and chaining them is good. but we need to nail down the requirements because assume some tools might require different format
15:27:51 <cris_> ... I have as example the typescript definitions
15:28:03 <cris_> ... they are created starting from the schema
15:28:06 <kaz> s/assume //
15:28:07 <cris_> q+
15:28:13 <cris_> ... we need to check that
15:28:18 <kaz> ack da
15:29:36 <cris_> kaz: I agree with Daniel
15:30:34 <cris_> ... I don't want to use bigger tools, I suggested a software design approach. Thinking the system as a black box
15:34:16 <cris_> ... I don't want to create smaller tools
15:34:32 <cris_> ege: we don't know the ideal case
15:34:56 <cris_> kaz: which is the input
15:35:04 <cris_> ege: we don't know it yet
15:36:16 <cris_> kaz: from Mahda's diagram we have the list
15:36:46 <cris_> ... of inputs that we have to understand which files are really inputs
15:37:12 <cris_> ... what we want to do as a group? understand the toolchain or create a better toolchain?
15:37:26 <cris_> ege: we are studying the current toolchain to create a better one
15:37:32 <cris_> ... and simpier
15:37:47 <cris_> ... but for that we have to understand the possibile tools that we can use
15:37:54 <cris_> ... the output is important
15:38:01 <cris_> ... the inputs is up to us to choose
15:38:48 <cris_> kaz: we can have dedicated tooling discussion
15:41:00 <cris_> topic: management
15:41:28 <kaz> s/discussion/discussion. saying that only Kaz doesn't understand what to do for this and stop the discussion suddenly is impolite :(/
15:41:32 <cris_> ege: there were some unclear topics
15:42:02 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/blob/ege-project-management/proposals/project-management/project-management.md
15:42:20 <cris_> ege: this is the proposed approach
15:42:34 <cris_> ... we can also have things like tooling or testing etc
15:42:41 <cris_> ... no changes to the assigment table
15:42:58 <cris_> ... one thing I wanted to clarify is that we have a sort of lifecycle
15:43:03 <kaz> s/we can/In that case, we should/
15:43:32 <kaz> s/tooling discussion/tooling discussion rather than having quick discussion as part of the TD call/
15:43:40 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
15:43:46 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:43:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/21-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:44:58 <cris_> ege presents the lifecycle
15:45:10 <cris_> ege: I added also some explainer text
15:45:19 <cris_> ... and then we can sort it as usual
15:45:39 <kaz> s/topic: management/topic: Project Management/
15:45:40 <cris_> ack c
15:45:45 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:45:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/21-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:45:55 <cris_> ege: Koster already approve
15:46:04 <cris_> s/approve/approved/
15:46:18 <cris_> ... there are project managment tools that can do this automatically
15:46:28 <cris_> ... but with github we have to to it manually
15:46:31 <cris_> q+
15:46:36 <kaz> ack k
15:47:46 <cris_> cris: what do mean by automating ?
15:48:16 <kaz> q+
15:48:23 <cris_> ege: example if you want to split a big issue that depends on other is not really clear
15:48:24 <luca_barbato> q+
15:48:37 <cris_> ... github has simplier concept we have to do more manual work
15:48:54 <cris_> ack c
15:49:33 <cris_> kaz: thanks for the diagram, it would be better to clarify the mapping between the state and the step within the diagram
15:49:56 <cris_> ... issue created might be added to the diagram
15:50:34 <cris_> ... minor categorisation -> categorization
15:51:46 <kaz> ack k
15:52:33 <kaz> s/between the state and the step within the diagram/between the state within the diagram and the step described by the text./
15:52:37 <cris_> luca: in github you can create a checklist and create dependent issues
15:53:05 <cris_> ege: yes, I know it is fine but it is basically linking
15:53:19 <kaz> s/issue created might be added to the diagram/for example, both the diagram state and the text can say "Step 1. GitHub Issue created"./
15:53:25 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:53:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/21-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:53:36 <Ege> q?
15:53:37 <Ege> ack l
15:54:31 <cris_> ege: everybody else is fine with the proposal?
15:54:44 <cris_> ... I remove the proposal and make it a decision?
15:54:47 <cris_> ... any other proposals?
15:54:50 <cris_> ... I will go on
15:55:13 <kaz> q+
15:55:51 <kaz> ack k
15:57:06 <cris_> ege: we have backlog with scripting API
15:57:12 <cris_> ... daniel created the relevant issues
15:57:21 <cris_> ... he linked back to scripting API
15:57:45 <kaz> i/we have back/topic: Backlog/
15:58:00 <cris_> ... we can remove it form the backlog
15:58:01 <cris_> q+
15:58:42 <kaz> q+
15:58:58 <cris_> ack c
15:59:05 <cris_> cris: thank you really much Daniel
16:00:09 <cris_> kaz: during Scripting API Daniel mentioned to he needed to talk with Ege about how to manage issues
16:00:16 <cris_> ... please continue to discuss
16:00:18 <kaz> i|we have|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-scripting-api/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3Await-for-td wot-scripting-api Issue with "wait-for-td"|
16:00:18 <cris_> ege: ok
16:00:32 <cris_> ege: anything else?
16:00:46 <kaz> s/please/this is good for inter-TF collaboration, so please/
16:00:51 <kaz> s/discuss/discuss it/
16:00:56 <cris_> [adjourned]
16:01:03 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:01:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/21-wot-td-minutes.html kaz