14:50:11 RRSAgent has joined #ixml 14:50:15 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/02/20-ixml-irc 14:53:35 Meeting: Invisible XML 14:53:38 Chair: Steven 14:53:45 Scribe: norm 14:53:52 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:53:53 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/20-ixml-minutes.html norm 14:54:02 rrsagent, set logs world-visible 14:54:33 Date: 2024-02-20 14:56:52 Steven has joined #ixml 15:00:20 Present: Michael, John, Steven, Norm, Bethan 15:03:45 Topic: Review of agenda 15:04:00 cmsmcq has joined #ixml 15:04:06 ACTION 2023-01-10-f continues 15:04:18 john has joined #ixml 15:04:30 ACTION 2023-10-17-a completed 15:04:38 ACTION 2023-11-28-a continues 15:04:47 ACTION 2023-11-28-c continues 15:04:56 ACTION 2023-11-28-e continues 15:05:03 ACTION 2024-01-09-a completed 15:05:17 Topic: Status reports 15:05:57 John: I've updated the workbench to fix bugs. Names weren't being recognized unless they were followed by a space. 15:06:27 John: Working on experiments to match strings and regular expression matching. Tidied up the UX a bit. 15:06:54 Norm: No status yet. 15:07:32 Bethan: The PhD is submitted! 15:09:25 Bethan: Have also started working on my implementation again! 15:09:57 Michael: Nothing to report. 15:10:23 Steven: I've staged the next version, but haven't pushed the changes. Time has been focused on paper for Prague. 15:10:36 Steven: Paper is about round-tripping iXML. 15:11:21 John: I'm also doing some experiments on round-tripping. Can you create a stylesheet from the grammar such that if you run it on the output, it will provide a flattened result. 15:12:37 Bethan: My instinct is that the grammar is to some extent a schema for the output XML (or embodies the same information) as at least the part of the schema for output that your're output 15:13:23 s/for output that your're output/for the output your producing/ 15:13:53 John: Things become very complicated where operators are added back into the right places. 15:14:49 Steven: Someone else is submitting an iXML paper at Prague; he wants to use iXML to reparse XML, to extract information from the text nodes and put it back into the XML. 15:15:35 John: This is something like the work I've done parsing XPath out of XSLT. 15:17:40 Some additional discussion of the problems of round tripping. 15:20:15 Bethan: Could you leverage a schema to produce a grammar to parse some texts into the grammar? 15:20:46 Nods of agreement: there's something interesting about the intersection between grammars and schemas. 15:20:53 Topic: publication of ixml spec as W3C CG Report 15:21:11 Steven: This is finished, but there are some URL problems. 15:21:43 ACTION: Steven to contact W3C to get the report links fixed on the report and ixml group pages. 15:22:35 Topic: Issue #139 Sample grammars for IRIs and URIs 15:22:45 Steven: I published something today; we can discuss it next week. 15:23:11 Topic: Issue #202 Spec should say Unicode version is implementation-defined 15:23:52 ACTION: Steven to amend the specification to describe how Unicode is version-dependent 15:27:02 Topic: Issue #199 Require whitespace between prolog and first rule? 15:28:11 Norm: Whitespace is required between rules but not between the prolog and the first rule. 15:28:35 Norm: I think we should be consistent. 15:29:18 Steven: The space is needed between rules to avoid ambiguity; this is a change for the sake of change. 15:29:51 John: If we start to put multiple things in the prolog, things may get ambiguous. 15:30:30 Norm: I'm not going to lie down in the road if we leave this until we need to do it. 15:31:05 Bethan: I think given it's backwards incompatible, we should do it sooner rather than later. 15:31:32 Steven: We also have a larger prolog issue that I raised in email. 15:32:02 ACTION: Michael to make sure that Steven's prolog issues are on the agenda for next time. 15:32:24 s/on the agenda for next time/turned into trackable issues/ 15:32:47 Topic: Issue #192 Normalizing line endings in ixml inputs 15:34:04 Steven: This is a request from the broader community for a way to specify a line ending that's not platform-dependent. 15:34:21 Norm: That's the issue with a particular spin, I think the user would like us to just normalize to #A and move on. 15:34:53 Michael: I don't know on an IBM mainframe that uses variable length records what they do. I suppose the obvious thing to do is to say that a record boundary turns into a #A. 15:35:09 Some discussion of what IBM mainframes actually do for storing text files. 15:37:41 Michael: I think the proposal is that the iXML spec should say that an implementation presents end-of-lines as #A regardless of the platform. 15:38:10 Steven: My problem with that solution is that if I get files over the web, I don't know where they came from. 15:39:09 Norm: I think XML solves this; there's a simple algorithm for deciding if and which sequences of characters are turned into a single #A 15:40:42 Michael: I think it boils down to: when you're reading a character stream, you normalize line feeds. You have some built in understanding understanding of line boundaries and you recognize them. 15:42:29 Michael: The question in my mind is, if you wanted to use iXML to do something a little closer to the metal, how would you do it? 15:43:02 Norm: I think if you want to do that, you want to treat the input of some kind of binary so it's out-of-scope 15:44:53 Some discussion of the circumstances when you might want to process "binary" of one sort of another. 15:46:47 Bethan: Why not introduce an end-of-line marker for a non-platform-specific end-of-line? 15:46:57 Steven: That's what I proposed in response to Norm. 15:47:31 Bethan: My suggestion is that the character would be a shortcut for the expansion \n, \n\r\, \r, etc. 15:48:08 John: Would you be able to do that in a member string? 15:48:19 Steven: You can't negate that easily, that was part of my example. 15:49:17 Michael: I may be misunderstanding, but I'm not a big fan of the idea of what Bethan suggests; but I'm not sure the problem Steven identifies is a real one. 15:49:51 Michael: Suppose we choose a single character for abstract "end of line"; NEL. If we said NEL means any linefeed, so when that's in grammar... 15:50:08 Steven: I think what Bethan proposed is a character in the grammar that represents tihs. 15:50:19 s/tihs/this/ 15:50:23 Michael: I can say, give me anything that's not that character. 15:50:33 Steven: But it's not only one character. 15:51:38 Michael: If we do normalize, I think normalizing the same way as XML would be wiser, therefore #A. 15:51:52 Topic: Any other business? 15:52:51 John: I think we should try to keep track of where people are using iXML. I got a bug report from someone using iXML to parse some genetic data. 15:53:26 Adjourned. 15:53:35 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:53:37 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/20-ixml-minutes.html norm 15:55:42 FWIW, US daylight time starts 10 March. (Yikes.) 15:55:55 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:55:57 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/20-ixml-minutes.html cmsmcq 15:57:15 In the UK, it starts 31 March. 15:57:19 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:57:20 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/20-ixml-minutes.html cmsmcq