12:52:20 RRSAgent has joined #i18n 12:52:25 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/02/20-i18n-irc 12:52:25 Zakim has joined #i18n 12:52:38 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/72d76e79-d8d4-4c3f-8707-fd4d3271e2ff/20240220T050000/ 12:52:38 clear agenda 12:52:38 agenda+ Agenda 12:52:38 agenda+ Action Items 12:52:39 agenda+ Info Share and Progress Reports 12:52:41 agenda+ Review on-going issues 12:52:43 agenda+ Discuss quotes in #5478 12:52:45 Issue 5478 not found 12:52:57 Meeting: I18N ⇔ CSS 12:53:04 Chair: Addison Phillips 12:53:10 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/20-i18n-minutes.html addison 12:54:36 present+ Addison 12:59:34 atsushi has joined #i18n 13:01:03 present+ Florian, Bert, Atsushi, Fuqiao 13:01:28 rrsagent, make minutes 13:01:29 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/20-i18n-minutes.html xfq 13:02:06 zakim, take up agendum 1 13:02:06 agendum 1 -- Agenda -- taken up [from agendabot] 13:02:23 agenda? 13:02:26 Issue 5478 not found 13:02:32 scribe+ 13:02:48 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/5478 -> Issue 5478 [css-content] Quote character choice must depend on surrounding language, not language of the quotation (by r12a) [css-content-3] [Closed Accepted by CSSWG Resolution] [i18n-needs-resolution] [Agenda+ i18n] 13:02:48 csswg-drafts#5478 13:02:49 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/5478 -> Issue 5478 [css-content] Quote character choice must depend on surrounding language, not language of the quotation (by r12a) [css-content-3] [Closed Accepted by CSSWG Resolution] [i18n-needs-resolution] [Agenda+ i18n] 13:03:17 agenda+ text space 13:03:22 florian: I also want to talk about a set of issues about text spacing and the various categories 13:03:26 zakim, take up agendum 2 13:03:26 agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot] 13:03:36 gb, list open actions with label css 13:03:37 Found actions in w3c/i18n-actions: #68, #53, #47, #35, #18, #16, #11 13:03:42 ... in terms of action items, I'll dive into the details later 13:03:48 #47 13:03:49 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/47 -> Action 47 make the CSSWG aware of Warichu (on frivoal) due 2023-10-04 13:04:01 ... give an update or a refresher to the CSSWG about what Warichu is 13:04:10 ... let's dive into this one first 13:04:32 ... I don't think anything will happen urgently 13:05:07 ... @@@1 13:05:36 ... there were a few people who thought that the hardest problem about this was to stretch the parentheses 13:05:46 ... and say this looks like MathML 13:06:00 ... but that is not actually the main problem 13:06:17 ... there were a couple of questions that I didn't have answer for 13:06:32 ... but xfq gave an answer 13:06:42 ... which is embedded Warichu 13:07:13 ... if you see Bible annotations, you tend to have annotations on annotations 13:07:46 ... Illustrator supports arbitrary number of lines 13:08:10 addison: should I close #47? 13:08:11 close #47 13:08:12 Closed -> issue #47 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/47 13:08:14 florian: I think so 13:08:28 ... I don't expect any consequence immediately 13:08:54 #68 13:08:55 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/68 -> Action 68 follow up with florian about testing with kindle (on aphillips) due 2024-01-25 13:09:18 addison: #68 is on me actually to follow up with you about testing on Kindle 13:09:41 ... I wasn't here in the meeting, but I could help you 13:09:49 florian: it's about HTML ruby 13:10:00 ... tabular markup and rtc 13:10:06 ... on Firefox and Kindle 13:10:30 #i18 13:10:32 #18 13:10:33 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/18 -> Action 18 Have informal explanation sessions about counter style translations with csswg members (on frivoal, fantasai) due 18 Jul 2023 13:10:44 s/#i18// 13:11:18 #16 13:11:18 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/16 -> Action 16 Keep track of line-breaking in Korean for i18n-discuss#11 (on aphillips) due 1 Jan 2024 13:12:16 #11 13:12:16 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/11 -> Action 11 Triage all css properties to determine which are logical, physical, or na by default (on frivoal) due 18 Jul 2023 13:12:39 florian: I see no particular blocker other than the length of to-do lists, so possibly 13:12:47 agenda? 13:12:49 Issue 5478 not found 13:12:56 s/possibly/possibly this year/ 13:12:57 zakim, take up agendum 3 13:12:57 agendum 3 -- Info Share and Progress Reports -- taken up [from agendabot] 13:13:17 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/73#issuecomment-1954028449 13:13:18 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/73 -> Action 73 make a list of invisible characters to support html 5121 discussion (on r12a) due 2024-02-22 13:14:01 r12a: I put together a list of invisible or ambiguous characters I'd like to ask HTML for named entities 13:14:07 ... just FYI 13:14:40 addison: we'll have a call with the WHATWG later this week 13:16:24 r12a: btw, florian, if you scroll down to the bottom you'll see the list of things I really want 13:18:22 zakim, take up agendum 5 13:18:22 agendum 5 -- Discuss quotes in #5478 -- taken up [from agendabot] 13:18:32 csswg-drafts#5478 13:18:32 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/5478 -> Issue 5478 [css-content] Quote character choice must depend on surrounding language, not language of the quotation (by r12a) [css-content-3] [Closed Accepted by CSSWG Resolution] [i18n-needs-resolution] [Agenda+ i18n] 13:18:56 florian: I think fantasai made some edits within the past 2 weeks 13:19:42 r12a: I was a little surprised because @@2 13:20:01 ... and fantasai was proposing a default that didn't do that 13:20:28 addison: let me see if I can express it 13:20:56 r12a: when you hit the quote for the first time, you look at the language outside the quotes 13:21:15 ... and then you decide therefore what type of quotes you're going to use 13:21:57 ... and then no matter how many levels of quotes or what languages are contained within those nested quotes, you still use the same type of quotes 13:22:10 The example is: «Give George my love and tell him, “Muddle”» 13:22:37 ... if your context is Japanese, then it'll always be the angle bracket 13:22:58 ... all the way down 13:23:00 Mais Lucy répondit: «Give George my love and tell him, “Muddle”» 13:23:23 Mais Lucy répondit: «Give George my love and tell him, ‹Muddle›». 13:23:44 florian: it is capable of doing what r12a wants, but you have to ask for it 13:23:53 ... it doesn't automatically do it 13:24:03 r12a: which I don't think is good 13:24:10 ... I think it should be default 13:24:47 florian: I think the trick here is in CSS the element no longer matters 13:24:54 ... it could be set by the q element 13:25:26 ... I don't think the goal is deliberately to do the opposite of what r12a wants 13:26:54 florian: if you just go to the parent all the way to the top @@@3 13:27:10 ... you want to start remembering when you hit the first q element 13:27:32 ... so that means we need a special value on the q element 13:28:06 ... does this mean that the initial value of the property should be `match-parent` 13:29:23 ... I think we can get the behaviour we want if we simply put q * { quotes: match-parent; } in the browser style sheet 13:29:49 r12a: but it has to remember the type of quote, not the language of the text 13:29:55 florian: that's fine 13:30:28 ... match-parent specify the same type of quotes as the parent 13:30:42 r12a: OK, regardless of any language changes in the way 13:31:01 florian: I'll put a proposal in GitHub 13:31:48 ... if you change language between root and the first quote, match-parent would have done the wrong thing 13:33:23 ... @@@4 13:35:25 r12a: it seems to me the first level quotes are chosen on the basis of language 13:35:41 ... but the second level quote is not chosen on the basis of language at all 13:35:54 florian: it's based on the *quote* 13:36:00 agenda? 13:36:03 Issue 5478 not found 13:36:08 zakim, take up agendum 6 13:36:08 agendum 6 -- text space -- taken up [from addison] 13:36:34 florian: we talked about this a while ago 13:36:43 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/pull/9503 13:36:43 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/pull/9503 -> Pull Request 9503 [css-text-4] Refine definition of ideographs (by frivoal) [css-text-4] [i18n-tracker] [Needs Review of Proposed Text] [i18n-jlreq] [i18n-clreq] [i18n-klreq] 13:36:45 ... and in response to that, fantasai and I made a PR 13:37:36 ... xfq raised a couple of issues asking about Bopomofo/Hangul and Chinese 13:38:40 ... there should be no space, but because Bopomofo/Hangul are considered ideograph or they are considered neither ideographs nor non-ideographic letters? 13:38:56 ... and then I saw that there was a proposal to Unicode 13:39:09 ... a Unicode property about this 13:39:47 ... given the number of questions about this matter, I suspect actually maintaining the mapping in Unicode is the way to go long term 13:39:59 ... so it's good that we have this proposal 13:41:28 xfq: I think Bopomofo should be categorized as ideographs 13:41:42 ... not sure about Hangul, but might be the same as Bopomofo 13:41:58 florian: we have a few other issues 13:42:12 ... like the black square characters and so on and so forth 13:42:19 bopomofo: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9980 13:42:19 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9980 -> Issue 9980 [css-text][text-spacing] Extra spacing between Bopomofo and Chinese characters (by xfq) [css-text-4] [i18n-tracker] [i18n-clreq] 13:42:27 hangul: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9979 13:42:28 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9979 -> Issue 9979 [css-text][text-spacing] Extra spacing between Hangul and Hanja (by xfq) [css-text-4] [i18n-tracker] [i18n-klreq] 13:42:34 squares: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9603 13:42:35 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9603 -> Issue 9603 [css-text][text-spacing] Add black square & white square characters to the definition of ideographs? (by xfq) [css-text-4] [i18n-tracker] [i18n-jlreq] [i18n-clreq] 13:42:52 hw-katakana: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9471 13:42:52 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9471 -> Issue 9471 [css-text][text-autospace] Is halfwidth Kana "non-ideographic letters"? (by kojiishi) [css-text-4] [Needs Edits] [i18n-tracker] [Needs Testcase (WPT)] [i18n-jlreq] 13:43:00 punctuation: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9501 13:43:01 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9501 -> Issue 9501 [css-text] The definition of ideographs includes punctuation marks (by xfq) [css-text-4] [i18n-tracker] [i18n-clreq] [Agenda+ i18n] 13:43:42 florian: I'll reread all these issues and see the dominant view in each of them 13:44:02 ... I suspect we will not reach perfect until there is a Unicode property 13:46:25 xfq: @@@5 13:48:13 ... will discuss with Koji, jlreq, and clreq folks about the Unicode proposal 13:49:10 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9479 13:49:11 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9479 -> Issue 9479 [css-text][text-spacing] Extra spacing between ideographs and non-fullwidth punctuation/symbols (by xfq) [css-text-4] [i18n-needs-resolution] [i18n-jlreq] [i18n-clreq] 13:50:48 action: xfq: ask korean folks about text-spacing 13:50:55 Created -> action #74 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/74 13:51:18 s/about text-spacing/about text-autospace and hangul 13:51:43 Topic: AOB? 13:52:12 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/7577 13:52:12 rrsagent, make minutes 13:52:14 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/20-i18n-minutes.html xfq 13:52:20 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/7577 -> Issue 7577 [css-values-4][css-writing-modes-4] Revisit decision to use 永 instead of 水 as the ic unit (by ziyunfei) [css-values-4] [i18n-tracker] [i18n-jlreq] [i18n-clreq] [i18n-klreq] [Agenda+ i18n] 13:53:39 florian: about CSS#7577, I remember we talked about it 13:53:40 Issue 7577 not found 13:56:55 https://www.omniglot.com/conscripts/nihonnohangul.htm 13:57:26 rrsagent, make minutes 13:57:27 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/20-i18n-minutes.html xfq 13:57:44 zakim, who is here? 13:57:44 Present: Addison, Florian, Bert, Atsushi, Fuqiao 13:57:47 On IRC I see atsushi, Zakim, RRSAgent, addison, r12a, gb, eemeli, xfq, mbinzo, imlostlmao, Github, SintayewGashaw, BoKilgore, MojGraph, James1, clafase, matrix638, joraboi445, 13:57:47 ... gonzu_15, florian, fantasai, csarven, hadleybeeman, Mek, koji, alastairc, Rachael, astearns, cwilso, Bert, hsivonen, agendabot 13:57:49 present+ Richard 13:57:54 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/20-i18n-minutes.html addison