Meeting minutes
<wolfgang> date: 2024-02-15
<tzviya> scribe?
wolfgang: Welcome to the plenary, starting with update with accessibility task force
<AvneeshSingh> https://
Accessibility task force
AvneeshSingh: Focus is on the guide for retailers and distributors for understanding the metadata
… this is an update to an existing doc
… we have found that one approach doesn't work for everyone
… so now we have different types of metadata targeted to different groups
… VitalSource and ??? have committed to implement
… We are no longer using such fixed recs, instead being a little broader
<AvneeshSingh> https://
AvneeshSingh: There are some technique documents explaining how to extract metadata
… There are more technique docs coming for other types of metadata
<AvneeshSingh> https://
<AvneeshSingh> https://
AvneeshSingh: See the two links to the docs
George: Trying to get feedback for the schema document.
… There are some English strings in there, we are trying to make sure they are good in English, but we plan to add a localization method for them
… VitalSource will localize some of these
AvneeshSingh: We realized there are some things on the edge of accessibility, but have broader implications
… We want to bring these back to the group so we only work on things people are interested in
George: #70 - get citation
… It's hard to get a page number for citations
<wendyreid> w3c/
George: we want to see if the CG is interested in the feature
<wendyreid> w3c/
George: Next bookmarks, annotations and export of such
… There is partial support in some reading systems
… hard to compare. Purely RS, but we would test and evaluate
… #72 - read aloud
<wendyreid> w3c/
George: There are lot of distracting things (footnotes, citation refs, etc)
… DAISY has skippability that can be toggled
… Finally virtual pages, discussed but never resolved
… VitalSource has implemented something, as has Lars
<ivan> w3c/
George: But companies like Ebsco (???) could insert real page numbers, but they want it to be a generally used algorithm
… So other versions of the book would have the same page breaks
… Would like to hear what people think
ivan: For 71, EDRlab may have a project going here - can we work with them?
… Are 70 and 73 related?
<wendyreid> https://
ivan: The page numbers for 70 seem to be very related to 73
George: Unless there is an alternative to page numbers
ivan: Also related to annotations (want to refer to the text)
… need to reference the page somehow
… Need to anchor somehow
George: These aren't shared annotations
Hadrien: Not from EDRlab technically, but involved with them
… EPUB itself contains the annotations, then open the epub you get the annotations
… idea is it self contained
… tricky part is not just anchoring, but also context
… often need to embed a lot of information
… Also know percentage into the book, DOM ranges, etc
… need both anchors and context
duga: Just wanted to say 70/73 are likely the same
… the TF determined that people only understand progress is through page numbers, no one likes %s, it makes 70 and 73 the same
… also the impression of the indexers
Anti counterfeit Task Force
liisamk: Anti counterfeit TF
… not much discussion since the start of the year
… We are socializing the ISCC in the hopes of bringing in more people
… We are kicking back up on Friday
… The next piece is digging in to how ISCC and ??? work together
… how to we start socializing the next piece of the trust chain
Fixed Layout Accessibility TF
wendyreid: FL a11y TF
https://
wendyreid: Working on guidance doc for FL a11y - it is now in complete draft state
… please read and give feedback
… Mostly for publishers/authors, but there are also recs for RS at the end
<ivan> i/FL A11y TF/Topic: FL A11y TF/
wendyreid: discuss media overlay, tables, etc
… will produces some samples
<vince> can someone repost the fixed layout guidelines here? Sorry, I just joined the IRC now, and can't see any links above
George: I heard that Hadrien recommended that if you could get correct reading order, we could claim accessibility for FL documents
… that is the biggest issue, getting things in the correct order
wendyreid: Have discussed a reflowable mode
… It's still experimental, not in the main document
… would like to explore possibility of this and how to specify this for reading systems
George: Would there be a validator?
wendyreid: Still way too early
Hadrien: Context - this is looking at the EU directive and what people can actually do
… For instance you need to able to do ??? and you can't, but we might be able to make a system that could
… We need to document how TTS actually works, very few people know
… Out of that work we can make a best practice document
… documenting would be the first step
CircularKen: The document we have been working on is the start of what we will eventually be able to do
… already in the doc is reading order and image descriptions
… Then we can add an additional way to read it once we have this groundwork laid
Generate reflowable fixed layout books
wolfgang: One aspect is a11l and the other is adapting to different viewports
<tzviya> c/a11l/a11y
CircularKen: Fundamentally need to start with well made and designed docs
… we should discard placement, etc and just have a simple replacement of CSS that disregards positioning and styling
… Then we have the order with descriptions, etc with page markers. Should plan on designed version and a stripped back reflow version
wendyreid: Ken described it as we have it
… A lot of what we say now is text should be live (actual text), visual order and programmatic should match, we should have image descriptions
… Also some recs on what to do when you cross the fold (spread over 2 FL pages)
… That is the current emphasis. Follow best practices and the advanced stuff will follow
AvneeshSingh: Have we looked at the problem from the other side?
… That is can we start with something that has all the proper structure, then create a FL doc entirely from CSS
wendyreid: You mean convert reflow to FL?
<Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to respond
AvneeshSingh: Yes, basically start with a proper flowing doc, then just apply CSS to make it look right
tzviya: This isn't really considering how publishers work
… doing something like that is probably not feasible
liisamk: There is a moment here to socialize good use of FL
… there are a lot of people who use FL when they just don't want to make a flowing doc
… because it is easier
… This may be a good opportunities to push people to flowing text since they are thinking about what it really means to make something FL
… very little needs to be FL
wendyreid: We need to get people to question whether content needs to be FL
… Sometimes positioning helps with a11y (having images adjacent to text may help some readers)
… so sometimes FL can help a11y
liisamk: This gets me back to mixed formats
… A single FL page in a reflowable book would be really nice
<AvneeshSingh> +1 Liisa
Also +1 to Liisa
Extracting textual content
Hadrien: Goes way beyond extracting text
… eg language used
… Need a separate structure for TTS and creating reader mode
… though could use the same structure for both
George: We are getting feedback from students with dyslexia that read aloud is inadequate for their needs
… I agree we need to improve the description of how it is done (highlighting, speed, etc)
<wolfgang> qß
George: Need a lot of control in the TTS
wolfgang: Next, how do we render in reflowable mode
AvneeshSingh: This kind of thing is done by the screen readers
… Is there a need to tie this to FL?
… isn't more of a generic thing, how to extract and read the text?
… Seems like a big topics, and screen readers have researched it for years
Hadrien: Agree, this is beyond FL
… some specific FL things do exist (e.g. small content chunks)
… but in general it should be for all epub
wendyreid: ARIA wg is also interested in the same topic
… may even be become an all-web topic
George: Do they join us or do we join them?
wendyreid: Good question. May even need it's own CG. Hard to tell at this point
Webtoons
wendyreid: PMWG is discussing a potential change for this
… current proposal is to expand FLOW-CONTINUOUS to FL.
laurent_: We did not discuss pronunciation for TTS purposes