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15:14:12 <wolfgang> meeting: Publishing Community Group: Plenary Session
15:15:20 <wolfgang> date: 2024-02-15
15:15:32 <wolfgang> chair: wolfgang
15:19:26 <wolfgang> present+ wolfgang
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15:55:28 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
15:56:30 <ivan> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/aaf7944d-e567-4a18-8f49-4096f3e62990/
15:56:53 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Agenda plenary call 2024-02-15: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/aaf7944d-e567-4a18-8f49-4096f3e62990/
15:58:45 <tzviya> present+
16:00:30 <ivan> present+
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16:01:15 <ivan> present+ ken_jones, wolfgang, gregorio, graham, LauraB, ashley, avneesh
16:01:20 <gpellegrino> present+
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16:02:49 <ivan> present+ pul_gilius, mike_baker, sagiv, jonas_lillqvist
16:03:00 <ivan> s/pul/paul/
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16:03:23 <wendyreid> present+
16:03:28 <tzviya> scribe?
16:03:36 <duga> scribe+
16:03:39 <CharlesL> present+
16:03:58 <ivan> present+ paul_belfanti
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16:04:19 <ivan> present+ jeffrey_griggs
16:04:19 <jgriggs_prh> present+
16:04:35 <duga> wolfgang: Welcome to the plenary, starting with update with accessibility task force
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16:04:41 <AvneeshSingh> https://w3c.github.io/publ-a11y/UX-Guide-Metadata/draft/principles/?updated
16:04:45 <wolfgang> ack Avneesh
16:05:03 <duga> AvneeshSingh:Focus is on the guide for retailers and distributers for understanding the metadata
16:05:12 <duga> ... this is an update to an existing doc
16:05:39 <duga> ... we have found that one approach doesn't work for everyone
16:05:52 <wolfgang> s/distributers/distributors/
16:05:57 <duga> ... so now we have different types of metadata targeted to different groups
16:06:15 <ivan> present+ rickj
16:06:16 <duga> ... VitalSource and ??? have commited to implement
16:06:45 <wolfgang> s/commited/committed/
16:06:48 <duga> ... We are no longer using such fixed recs, instead being a little broader
16:07:17 <AvneeshSingh> https://w3c.github.io/publ-a11y/UX-Guide-Metadata/draft/principles/?updated
16:07:38 <duga> ... There are some technique documents explaining how to extract metadata
16:07:40 <rickj_> rickj_ has joined #publishingcg
16:07:43 <rickj_> present+
16:07:56 <duga> ... There are more technique docs coming for other types of metadata
16:08:09 <AvneeshSingh> https://www.w3.org/publishing/a11y/schema-a11y-summary/
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16:08:20 <AvneeshSingh> https://www.w3.org/publishing/a11y/audio-playback/
16:08:25 <ivan> present+ miia_kirsi
16:08:48 <duga> ... See the two links to the docs
16:09:36 <duga> George: Trying to get feedback for the schema document.
16:09:43 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:10:05 <duga> ... There are some English strings in there, we are trying to make sure they are good in English, but we plan to add a localization method for them
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16:10:18 <duga> ... VitalSource will localize some of these
16:11:22 <duga> AvneeshSingh: We realized there are some things on the edge of accessibility, but have broader implications
16:11:40 <duga> ... We want to bring these back to the group so we only work on things people are interested in
16:12:16 <duga> George: #70 - get citation
16:12:31 <duga> ... It's hard to get a page number for citations
16:12:39 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/publishingcg/issues/70
16:13:12 <duga> ... we want to see if the CG is interested in the feature
16:13:21 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/publishingcg/issues/71
16:13:28 <duga> ... Next bookmarks, annotations and export of such
16:13:41 <duga> ... There is partial support in some reading systems
16:14:04 <duga> ... hard to compare. Purely RS, but we would test and evaluate
16:14:15 <ivan> q+
16:14:18 <duga> ... #72 - read aloud
16:14:18 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/publishingcg/issues/72
16:14:39 <duga> ... There are lot of distracting things (footnotes, citation refs, etc)
16:14:55 <duga> ... DAISY has skippability that can be toggled
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16:14:59 <Hadrien> present+
16:15:10 <duga> ... Finally virtual pages, discussed but never resolved
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16:15:30 <duga> ... VitalSource has implemented something, as has Lars
16:15:30 <ivan> https://github.com/w3c/publishingcg/issues/73
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16:15:58 <duga> ... But companies like Ebsco (???) could insert real page numbers, but they want it to be a generally used algorithm
16:16:11 <duga> ... So other versions of the book would have the same page breaks
16:16:26 <duga> ... Would like to hear what people think
16:16:32 <wolfgang> ack ivan
16:16:53 <Hadrien> q+
16:17:02 <duga> ivan: For 71, EDRlab may have a project going here - can we work with them?
16:17:41 <duga> ... Are 70 and 73 related?
16:18:02 <wolfgang> q?
16:18:02 <wendyreid> https://docs.google.com/document/d/11GypOjE9xOTaINATl5bxVIA3Mc9jzNBGCr6GT_KNaQ4/edit?pli=1
16:18:19 <duga> ... The page numbers for 70 seem to be very related to 73
16:18:30 <duga> q+
16:18:44 <duga> George: Unless there is an alternative to page numbers
16:19:06 <duga> ivan: Also related to annotations (want to refer to the text)
16:19:22 <duga> ... need to reference the page somehow
16:19:41 <duga> ... Need to anchor somehow
16:20:01 <duga> George: These aren't shared annotations
16:20:33 <ivan> present+ vincent_nicotina
16:20:38 <tzviya> ack Hadrien
16:20:45 <wolfgang> ack Hadrien
16:20:52 <duga> Hadrien: Not from EDRlab technically, but involved with them
16:21:30 <duga> ... EPUB itself contains the annotations, then open the epub you get the annotations
16:21:32 <ivan> present+ laurent_le_meur
16:21:55 <duga> ... idea is it self contained
16:22:11 <duga> ... tricky part is not just anchoring, but also context
16:22:41 <duga> ... often need to embed a lot of information
16:22:53 <wolfgang> q?
16:23:48 <duga> ... Also know percentage into the book, DOM ranges, etc
16:24:17 <duga> ... need both anchors and context
16:24:41 <wendyreid> scribe+
16:24:59 <wendyreid> duga: Just wanted to say 70/73 are likely the same
16:25:24 <wendyreid> ... the TF determined that people only understand progress is through page numbers, no one likes %s, it makes 70 and 73 the same
16:25:31 <wolfgang> q?
16:25:31 <wendyreid> ... also the impression of the indexers
16:25:36 <tzviya> ack du
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16:25:53 <pbelfanti> present+
16:26:02 <duga> liisamk: Anti counterfeit TF
16:26:11 <duga> ... not much discussion since the start of the year
16:26:31 <duga> ... We are socializing the ISEC in the hopes of bringing in more people
16:26:45 <duga> ... We are kicking back up on Friday
16:27:06 <ivan> s/ISEC/ISCC/
16:27:16 <duga> ... The next piece is digging in to how ISCC and ??? work together
16:27:22 <tzviya> zakim, allow 2 minutes
16:27:22 <Zakim> ok, tzviya
16:27:34 <duga> ... how to we start socializing the next piece of the trust chain
16:27:35 <ivan> i/liisamk: Anti/Topic: Anti counterfeit Task Force/
16:27:50 <duga> wendyreid: FL a11y TF
16:27:53 <wendyreid> https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/epub33/fxl-a11y/
16:28:24 <duga> ... Working on guidance doc for FL a11y - it is now in complete draft state
16:28:29 <ivan> i/AvneeshSingh:Focus is on/Topic: Accessibility task force/
16:28:31 <duga> ... please read and give feedback
16:29:00 <duga> ... Mostly for publishers/authors, but there are also recs for RS at the end
16:29:04 <wolfgang> q?
16:29:05 <ivan> i/FL A11y TF/Topic: FL A11y TF/
16:29:14 <duga> ... discuss media overlay, tables, etc
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16:29:55 <duga> ... will produces some samples
16:30:20 <wolfgang> ack George
16:30:51 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/publishingcg/issues/69
16:30:53 <vince> can someone repost the fixed layout guidelines here?  Sorry, I just joined the IRC now, and can't see any links above
16:30:53 <duga> George: I heard that Hadrien recommended that if you could get correct reading order, we could claim accessibility for FL documents
16:31:06 <duga> .... that is the biggest issue, getting things in the correct order
16:31:14 <Hadrien> q+
16:31:32 <duga> wendyreid: Have discussed a reflowable mode
16:31:44 <duga> ... It's still experimental, not in the main document
16:32:05 <duga> ... would like to explore possibility of this and how to specify this for reading systems
16:32:33 <CircularKen> q+
16:32:35 <duga> George: Would there be a validator?
16:32:43 <duga> wendyreid: Still way too early
16:32:50 <wolfgang> ack Hadrien
16:33:09 <duga> Hadrien: Context - this is looking at the EU directive and what people can actually do
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16:33:48 <duga> ... For instance you need to able to do ??? and you can't, but we might be able to make a system that could
16:34:16 <duga> ... We need to document how TTS actually works, very few people know
16:34:27 <duga> ... Out of that work we can make a best practice document
16:34:53 <wolfgang> ack CircularKen
16:34:57 <duga> ... documenting would be the first step
16:35:19 <duga> CircularKen: The document we have been working on is the start of what we will eventually be able to do
16:35:31 <wolfgang> q?
16:35:35 <duga> ... already in the doc is reading order and image descriptions
16:36:07 <duga> ... Then we can add an additional way to read it once we have this groundwork laid
16:36:18 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/publishingcg/issues/69
16:36:28 <duga> Topic: Generate reflowable fixed layout books
16:36:55 <duga> wolfgang: One aspect is a11l and the other is adapting to different viewports
16:37:16 <CircularKen> q+
16:37:26 <tzviya> c/a11l/a11y
16:37:28 <wendyreid> q+
16:37:28 <liisamk> q+
16:37:32 <tzviya> ack CircularKen
16:37:46 <wolfgang> ack CircularKen
16:37:55 <duga> CircularKen: Fundamentally need to start with well made and designed docs
16:38:30 <duga> ... we should discard placement, etc and just have a simple replacement of CSS that disregards positioning and styling
16:39:02 <duga> ... Then we have the order with descriptions, etc with page markers. Should plan on designed version and a stripped back reflow version
16:39:25 <wolfgang> ack wendyreid
16:39:34 <duga> wendyreid: Ken described it as we have it
16:39:55 <liisamk> q-
16:40:04 <wolfgang> q?
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16:40:10 <duga> ... A lot of what we say now is text should be live (actual text), visual order and programmatic should match, we should have image descriptions
16:40:31 <George> present+
16:40:36 <duga> ... Also some recs on what to do when you cross the fold (spread over 2 FL pages)
16:41:10 <wolfgang> q?
16:41:10 <AvneeshSingh> q+
16:41:17 <duga> ... That is the current emphasis. Follow best practices and the advanced stuff will follow
16:41:24 <wolfgang> ack Avneesh
16:41:40 <duga> AvneeshSingh: Have we looked at the problem from the other side?
16:41:43 <wolfgang> q?
16:42:05 <wolfgang> q?
16:42:06 <duga> ... That is can we start with something that has all the proper structure, then create a FL doc entirely from CSS
16:42:20 <duga> wendyreid: You mean convert reflow to FL?
16:42:20 <tzviya> q+ to respond
16:42:33 <wolfgang> ack Tzviya
16:42:33 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to respond
16:42:53 <duga> AvneeshSingh: Yes, basically start with a proper flowing doc, then just apply CSS to make it look right
16:43:06 <duga> tzviya: This isn't really considering how publishers work
16:43:10 <liisamk> q+
16:43:19 <duga> ... doing something like that is probably not feasible
16:43:23 <ivan> ack liisamk
16:43:23 <wolfgang> ack liisamk
16:43:37 <wendyreid> q+
16:43:44 <duga> liisamk: There is a moment here to socialize good use of FL
16:44:06 <duga> ... there are a lot of people who use FL when they just don't want to make a flowing doc
16:44:13 <wolfgang> q?
16:44:15 <duga> ... because it is easier
16:44:39 <wolfgang> q?
16:45:08 <wolfgang> q?
16:45:08 <duga> ... This may be a good opportunities to push people to flowing text since they are thinking about what it really means to make something FL
16:45:14 <wolfgang> ack wendyreid
16:45:17 <duga> ... very little needs to be FL
16:45:47 <duga> wendyreid: We need to get people to question whether content needs to be FL
16:45:55 <liisamk> q+
16:46:19 <duga> ... Sometimes positioning helps with a11y (having images adjacent to text may help some readers)
16:46:28 <duga> ... so sometimes FL can help a11y
16:46:34 <wolfgang> q?
16:46:44 <wolfgang> ack liisamk
16:46:46 <duga> liisamk: This gets me back to mixed formats
16:47:01 <wolfgang> q?
16:47:04 <duga> ... A single FL page in a reflowable book would be really nice
16:47:10 <AvneeshSingh> +1 Liisa
16:47:27 <duga> Also +1 to Liisa
16:47:39 <Hadrien> q+
16:48:08 <wolfgang> ack Hadrien
16:48:26 <duga> Topic: Extracting textual content (???)
16:48:39 <duga> Hadrien: Goes way beyond exracting text
16:48:51 <duga> ... eg language used
16:48:54 <ivan> s/(???)//
16:48:55 <wolfgang> s/exracting/extracting/
16:49:12 <duga> ... Need a separate structure for TTS and creating reader mode
16:49:13 <wolfgang> q?
16:49:19 <George> q+
16:49:24 <duga> ... though could use the same structure for both
16:49:31 <wolfgang> ack George
16:49:36 <wolfgang> q?
16:49:49 <duga> George: We are getting feedback from students with dyslexia that read aloud is inadequate for their needs
16:50:08 <wolfgang> q?
16:50:23 <duga> ... I agree we need to improve the description of how it is done (highlighting, speed, etc)
16:50:39 <wolfgang> qß
16:50:45 <wolfgang> q?
16:50:51 <duga> ... Need a lot of control in the TTS
16:50:57 <AvneeshSingh> q+
16:50:57 <wendyreid> zakim, turn off timer
16:50:58 <Zakim> I don't understand 'turn off timer', wendyreid
16:51:01 <tzviya> zakim, stop timer
16:51:01 <Zakim> I don't understand 'stop timer', tzviya
16:51:15 <wendyreid> zakim, turn off speaker warning
16:51:15 <Zakim> I don't understand 'turn off speaker warning', wendyreid
16:51:29 <duga> wolfgang: Next, how do we render in reflowable mode
16:51:46 <wolfgang> ack Avneesh
16:51:50 <wolfgang> q?
16:51:57 <duga> AvneeshSingh: This kind of thing is done by the screen readers
16:52:05 <wolfgang> q?
16:52:11 <tzviya> zakim, stop timing
16:52:11 <Zakim> ok, tzviya
16:52:12 <duga> ... Is there a need to tie this to FL?
16:52:13 <Hadrien> q+
16:52:29 <duga> ... isn't more of a generic thing, how to extract and read the text?
16:52:35 <wolfgang> q?
16:52:46 <ivan> zakim, stop timing
16:52:46 <Zakim> I was not timing speakers, ivan
16:53:05 <wolfgang> q?
16:53:08 <duga> ... Seems like a big topics, and screen readers have researched it for years
16:53:15 <wolfgang> q?
16:53:15 <wolfgang> ack Hadrien
16:53:17 <duga> Hadrien: Agree, this is beyond FL
16:53:47 <duga> ... some specific FL things do exist (e.g. small content chunks)
16:53:59 <duga> ... but in general it should be for all epub
16:54:00 <wolfgang> q?
16:54:13 <duga> wendyreid: ARIA wg is also interested in the same topic
16:54:23 <duga> ... may even be become an all-web topic
16:54:35 <wolfgang> q?
16:54:45 <George> q+q+
16:54:58 <wolfgang> ack George
16:55:09 <duga> George: Do they join us or do we join them?
16:55:13 <wolfgang> q?
16:55:19 <wolfgang> ack q+
16:55:24 <wolfgang> q?
16:55:30 <wolfgang> q?
16:55:46 <duga> wendyreid: Good question. May even need it's own CG. Hard to tell at this point
16:55:46 <wolfgang> q?
16:56:07 <duga> Topic: Webtoons
16:56:47 <duga> wendyreid: PMWG is discussing a potential change for this
16:57:14 <duga> ... current proposal is to expand FLOW-CONTINUOUS to FL.
16:57:31 <wolfgang> q?
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16:59:43 <gbell> q+
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17:00:32 <wolfgang> q?
17:00:37 <tzviya> ack gb
17:01:52 <duga> laurent_: We did not discuss pronunciation for TTS purposes
17:02:11 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:02:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/15-publishingcg-minutes.html ivan
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