IRC log of wot-td on 2024-02-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:02:35 [RRSAgent]
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15:02:39 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/02/14-wot-td-irc
15:02:45 [kaz]
meeting: WoT-WG - TD-TF - Slot 1
15:03:25 [Ege]
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15:03:31 [kaz]
present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Ege_Korkan, Ben_Francis, Daniel_Peintner
15:04:23 [dape]
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15:05:17 [kaz]
present+ Cristiano_Aguzzi
15:06:11 [kaz]
agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#February_14_and_February_15%2C_2024
15:07:21 [ktoumura]
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15:08:00 [Ege]
scribenick: Ege
15:08:17 [Ege]
topic: minutes review
15:08:28 [kaz]
-> https://www.w3.org/2024/02/07-wot-td-minutes.html Feb-7
15:09:22 [Ege]
ek: anything to change? I only see name issues for daniel and koster
15:09:57 [Ege]
topic: TD Resource Versioning
15:10:06 [cris_]
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15:10:10 [kaz]
present+ Kunihiko_Toumura
15:11:11 [Ege]
ek: we have met with Mahda, Luca and Klaus. We discussed tooling
15:11:26 [Ege]
... we documented everything at https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1969/files#diff-5a1e620a21f1c28a342f17f7b625150e976e6d75bc4bc1ba8c24dad36d9249b8R90
15:11:32 [dape]
q+
15:12:05 [Ege]
... basically we can leverage npm to do a bunch of stuff
15:12:07 [dape]
ack dape
15:12:20 [kaz]
i|we have|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1969 PR 1969 - WIP: Concrete Versioning Proposal|
15:12:50 [Mizushima]
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15:13:03 [kaz]
q+
15:13:06 [Ege]
dp: do we want to publish packages with each PR
15:14:14 [Ege]
ek: maybe monthly but we do not need many additional stuff
15:14:40 [Ege]
kaz: we should not overcomplicate it but write the requirements first
15:14:54 [Ege]
ack k
15:15:04 [Ege]
ek: yes we have identified overall problem areas
15:15:13 [kaz]
present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima
15:16:02 [Ege]
... but we want to keep it simple
15:16:13 [Ege]
topic: Profile Design
15:16:53 [Ege]
bf: we have discussed this before but I want to show the strawman proposal
15:17:22 [Ege]
... we have two mechanisms to define protocol bindings, binding templates and profiles
15:17:37 [Ege]
... bindings are descriptive, profiles are prescriptive
15:17:49 [Ege]
... I have a proposal for another type of approach
15:18:07 [kaz]
i|we have|-> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wot-wg/2024Feb/0000.html Ben's strawman proposal|
15:18:12 [Ege]
... for profile and bindings to work better together
15:18:14 [kaz]
rrsagent, make log public
15:18:18 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:18:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/14-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:18:59 [Ege]
... 3 specs define bindings: TD, HTTP Binding Template and HTTP Basic Profile
15:19:14 [Ege]
... profiles go into more details
15:19:31 [kaz]
-> https://w3c.github.io/wot-profile/#http-basic-profile WoT Profile - 6. HTTP Basic Profile
15:20:05 [Ege]
... I propose removing section 8.3.1 of TD spec
15:20:06 [kaz]
present+ Jan_Romann
15:20:32 [Ege]
... and merging http binding and profile
15:20:51 [dape]
q+
15:20:52 [Ege]
... profile can use the defaults of the http binding template
15:21:12 [JKRhb]
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15:21:31 [kaz]
-> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#http-binding-assertions WoT Thing Description Editor's Draft - 8.3.1 Protocol Binding based on HTTP
15:21:40 [Ege]
... I have some google docs files that are meant to be thrown away, they are just discussion starters
15:22:04 [kaz]
-> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1msgUZSrniTrgVieU2i_V2804gqvVsHrYByTv-OET1l8/edit?usp=sharing WoT HTTP Protocol Binding 2.0 proposal
15:22:58 [Ege]
... actions are tricky though
15:23:47 [luca_barbato]
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15:23:54 [Ege]
... since it is not possible to specify manageable actions in td but it is part of the TD 2.0 workitems
15:24:44 [Ege]
... now let's see the HTTP 2.0 profile proposal
15:25:09 [Ege]
... each category has some tables that explains each part
15:25:34 [Ege]
q+
15:26:23 [Ege]
... we should think about the normativeness
15:26:34 [kaz]
-> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LjBWiqQZXi85gXP2NNckQni5os6dwxW6UDGrZDb3cns/edit#heading=h.71drcnjjomtn WoT HTTP Basic Profile 2.0 proposal
15:26:44 [Ege]
... if profiles depend on bindings, which are not normative, they cannot be normative as well
15:27:02 [kaz]
present+ Luca_Barbato
15:27:20 [kaz]
-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/issues/285 wot-profile Issue 285 - Profile Mechanism 2.0
15:27:36 [Ege]
... another approach is to define subprotocols but that would give less interop by default
15:28:07 [Ege]
... daniel asked what will happen to profile 1.0? I think we should publish profile 1.0 as a note
15:28:15 [cris_]
q+
15:28:28 [kaz]
q+
15:28:54 [Ege]
... in both case profile 2.0 will be not compatible with profile 1.0
15:29:13 [Ege]
subtopic: Questions
15:29:44 [Ege]
dp: long running actions that is currently breaking "vanilla" implementations like node-wot
15:30:35 [Ege]
... TD and binding should open the hooks for profiles
15:30:40 [luca_barbato]
q+
15:30:47 [Ege]
... so would profiles always be a subset of the TD and binding
15:31:43 [Ege]
bf: Ideally yes
15:32:24 [dape]
ack dape
15:32:34 [Ege]
... but I am worried that some parts of the TD can not evolve enough for profiles to support that
15:33:34 [Ege]
bf: I want to structure what a profile can be
15:37:14 [kaz]
present+ Michael_Koster
15:37:55 [mjk]
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15:39:23 [mjk]
q?
15:39:57 [Ege]
ek: I like the direction. the table of contents is a good direction
15:40:07 [Ege]
... we need to agree on the context
15:40:25 [Ege]
s/on the context/ on the purpose
15:41:56 [kaz]
(Ege@@@)
15:42:04 [kaz]
ack ege
15:42:20 [Ege]
ca: sorry for not following up on the mailing list
15:42:27 [Ege]
... I like the direction overall
15:43:01 [Ege]
... thank you for the work. Discovery can be brought into bindings somehow?
15:43:23 [Ege]
... since discovery and protocols are closely related
15:43:39 [mjk]
q?
15:43:44 [Ege]
ack c
15:44:20 [Ege]
... I agree with daniel that we should not circumvenite the TD spec to add stuff to profile. If we do that, both specs fail
15:45:09 [Ege]
bf: as it currently stands, all discovery specs are in discovery spec. So the proposal is a subset of the mechanisms there
15:46:16 [Ege]
... I would be ok to not have some defaults if it means that mechanism is not in the td spec first
15:46:38 [Ege]
kaz: thank you for the proposal and it is a good input. three comments
15:47:02 [Ege]
... refactoring of wot specs is necessary but it is a question for the whole group
15:47:42 [Ege]
... we need to clarify what we mean by this profile and profile in general. Some proposals were extensions of TD
15:47:57 [Ege]
... so we need to agree on what to specify by which spec
15:48:04 [Ege]
... we need more use cases about the specific features
15:48:36 [Ege]
... like async or sync actions that remind of media related apis or media and text streams
15:48:54 [Ege]
... we should clarify if that would be a target for this mechanism
15:49:52 [Ege]
bf: profile should be constraints but in some cases we went towards extensions
15:50:04 [Ege]
... everything should be UC driven but this was from a use case in the beginning
15:50:12 [kaz]
q?
15:50:13 [kaz]
ack k
15:51:11 [Ege]
lb: in multimedia, a profile is a subset of a codec
15:51:57 [Ege]
... so we can do something like where we make the TD as descriptive and expressive as possible and then profiles constrain it
15:52:09 [Ege]
... we can even target cases like resource constrained devices
15:53:03 [Ege]
... TD can be extended a lot via semantic annotations
15:53:23 [Ege]
... so when that happens, we need to talk about what happens when a consumer doesn't understand it
15:54:00 [Ege]
... in media, a codec profile cannot extend the codec
15:55:29 [Ege]
... discovery is outside of TD. We can say that it is completely orthogonal to TD
15:57:35 [kaz]
ack lu
15:57:44 [Ege]
... we have to define how profiles can be composed
15:58:22 [Ege]
bf: a Thing can conform to a profile but it can do more. An HTTP basic TD can also have mqtt endpoints on top
15:58:45 [Ege]
... we have to make sure that two profiles do not conflict but I think profiles can be always combined
15:59:43 [cris_]
q+
15:59:43 [Ege]
... there are also overlaps in discovery service api and profiles
15:59:43 [dape]
q?
16:00:27 [luca_barbato]
q+
16:00:30 [cris_]
ack c
16:00:34 [Ege]
ca: discovery is orthogonal but you generally use the same protocol to use the TDD API and to interact with the THing
16:00:39 [kaz]
q+ to whisper we're out of time
16:01:29 [Ege]
lb: Discovery has a larger scope. we cannot describe mdns with a TD for example
16:02:14 [Ege]
... in mdns you have coap not http. It is an interesting topic to discuss
16:04:58 [Ege]
kaz: we need to also discuss wot specs refactoring as a wg
16:05:49 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:05:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/14-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:07:06 [Ege]
s/(Ege@@@)/I had some points but I like the structured approach. We did not have concrete use cases for profiles from Siemens but we are discussing this at the moment. Maybe UI profiles or browser compatbility profiles make sense. The word profile was confusing to some in Siemens. Also, why do we constrain links in an http profile? In general, we should discuss the scope
16:07:46 [Ege]
@kaz luca is going to edit his points now
16:09:00 [luca_barbato]
s/you have coap not http/you can have both http and coap right now, it is expected that a tiny Thing implementing coap would advertise using mdns+coap or other coap-related protocols instead/
16:09:11 [kaz]
s/I had/... I had/
16:09:15 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:09:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/14-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:10:05 [kaz]
chair: Ege, Koster
16:10:05 [kaz]
chair: Ege, Koster
16:10:05 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:10:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/14-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:10:43 [benfrancis]
Just one comment on the minutes: I said that my preference is to publish Profiles 1.0 as a REC, but I think there's also an argument to publish it as a Note and move onto Profiles 2.0.
16:10:43 [kaz]
s/@kaz luca is going to edit his points now/[adjourned]/
16:11:38 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:11:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/14-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
18:28:32 [Zakim]
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