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14:45:56 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/02/12-epub-fxl-irc
14:45:56 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:45:57 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), wendyreid
14:46:13 <wendyreid> meeting: FXL Accessibility Task Force
14:46:19 <wendyreid> date: 2024-02-12
14:46:23 <wendyreid> chair: wendyreid
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15:01:18 <CharlesL> present+
15:02:18 <wendyreid> present+
15:03:59 <wendyreid> https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/epub33/fxl-a11y/
15:03:59 <CharlesL> scribe+
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15:04:15 <jgriggs_prh> present+
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15:04:22 <CharlesL> wendyreid: "final / not final" draft :)
15:04:23 <Hadrien> present+
15:04:44 <CharlesL> ... remaining editorial, adding links to SC, add contributor section.
15:05:22 <CharlesL> ... agenda, discussing this draft.
15:05:26 <CharlesL> q+
15:05:31 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
15:05:33 <wendyreid> scribe+
15:05:42 <wendyreid> CharlesL: Wondering about the upcoming CG meeting this week
15:05:47 <wendyreid> ... FXL is going to give an update
15:06:18 <CharlesL> wendyreid: for the community group meeting: main update share this document. and tell folks what we are doing.
15:06:38 <CharlesL> ... experimental work: around rendering FXL as reflow and the TTS discusion.
15:06:47 <CharlesL> ... anything else to include?
15:06:48 <CircularKen_> Q+
15:06:52 <wendyreid> ack CircularKen_
15:07:37 <CharlesL> CircularKen_: start of document should state recommendation not a practical document, plans for a 2nd how do you actually do things document.  maybe just an opening section explaining this.
15:08:00 <CharlesL> ... we have taken out a lot of how to do things which goes into a 2nd doc. as I understand it.
15:08:24 <CharlesL> wendyreid: I can add a pointer, there is something at the end but can move it up higher.
15:09:19 <CharlesL> CircularKen_: Thanks, that is better.
15:09:37 <Hadrien> q+
15:10:00 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
15:10:24 <CharlesL> Hadrien: Do we have anything on Use of spreads and reading order may go back / forth between spreads.
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15:11:32 <CharlesL> ... should read left / right page and go back and forth between the two, we don't have any guidance on that.  common with text books or comics.  this is made worse that it is spread across two xhtml documents potentially.  hard to express the reading order.
15:11:51 <JonasLillqvist> q+
15:12:04 <wendyreid> ack JonasLillqvist
15:12:15 <CharlesL> wendyreid: we need to say something about spreads and the reading order should not flip between spreads.  you don't know what reading system the user has which makes this very difficult.
15:12:33 <CharlesL> JonasLillqvist: 2.2.3 talks about spreads,
15:12:42 <CharlesL> wendyreid: should be more explicit.
15:13:33 <CharlesL> JonasLillqvist: this was difficult to read IMO.  expected reading order "their" document LtoR reading order, but not possible for reading order to switch left / right / left pages.
15:13:51 <CharlesL> ... the point should be we can't move from left page to right page then back again.
15:13:56 <Hadrien> q+
15:14:00 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
15:14:07 <wendyreid> https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/epub33/fxl-a11y/#reading-order-spreads
15:14:38 <CharlesL> Hadrien: we can tell people you can't do it, but publishers will do it.  common in comics / text books.  Double page to present content.
15:15:10 <CharlesL> ... withing AHL group providing nav. how to do guided navigation across spreads with an area covering those spreads.
15:16:01 <JonasLillqvist> q+
15:16:03 <CharlesL> ... saying don't do it doesn't solve the problem.  specific reading order for elements we may need to explore more about the possibilities regarding this around guided navigation.
15:16:04 <wendyreid> ack JonasLillqvist
15:16:46 <CharlesL> JonasLillqvist: I have a lot of notes specific places in this document, in the 1.1 overview sentence "motivation for FXL" maybe it could be expanded.
15:17:06 <CharlesL> ... this is pretty important for this document why use this format instead of regular format EPUB.
15:18:14 <CircularKen_> q+
15:18:17 <CharlesL> ... main motivation is the need to preserve the print layout of the book, but WHY?  importance of text ie. illustrated text. We need to explain the importance of layout of text of the page
15:19:00 <CharlesL> ... using FXL relation of text and graphics expressed through the layout and why this can't be easily turned into a reflowable document.
15:19:05 <wendyreid> ack CircularKen_
15:19:08 <CharlesL> wendyreid: yes we can do that. thanks
15:19:11 <CircularKen_> https://paper.dropbox.com/doc/Visual-to-Textual-Explainer--CJaQbfNfHpavULFQwh8XuUEYAg-Hhlb35fK3KZc5hpMbkCRz
15:19:17 <CharlesL> CircularKen_: I agree with JonasLillqvist.
15:20:03 <CharlesL> ... there is a great value in layout, so we can lift that out from here and add this to our document and reasons why we are doing it.
15:20:42 <Hadrien> q+
15:21:01 <CharlesL> wendyreid: finding a good way to explain, there is an a11y argument ideas and text in a graphical way accompanying diagrams etc.  reluctant readers / dyslexia can be a huge benefit for some readers.
15:21:07 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
15:23:00 <CharlesL> Hadrien: challenging, layout conveys info.  FXL provides preferences from the authors. position of text in spread, usually the RS will respect your preference.  you may say something goes in the left or right of spread, but the RS decides if the spread will be displayed depending on screen size etc. orientation is kind of the same.  webtoons are kind of the same, you can't force contineous scrolling could make this unreadable.
15:24:29 <CharlesL> ... RS shaming going on, but on the other side the RS doesn't always follow the spread positioning or display it at all there are very good reasons why.  We need to provide what is "risky" and this needs to be better understood in terms of the EPUB specification.
15:26:39 <CharlesL> wendyreid: underlying RS / content creators, publishers / RS / users.  the user's can figure it out, but users always win in the preference game. if a user wants to read it on the phone, the user will demand they ad the way they want.  so the RS will go with the people paying vs. the content creator purity.  how do we communicate this? content will appear on devices / sizes that the author didn't expect.
15:26:56 <CharlesL> ... we have made some references, but could be more prevalent.
15:27:38 <wendyreid> q?
15:27:41 <CharlesL> Hadrien: RS style sheet, but FXL content gives publishers more control over reflowable.
15:28:45 <CharlesL> Koko: as a publisher FXL titles are only childrens books, we work hard to make books reflowable.  Children's books will have 2 or 3 words in a spread.
15:29:01 <Simon_M> present+
15:29:30 <CharlesL> ... for back lists is challenging.  how we convey what is happening in the artwork behind those 2/3 words.
15:30:14 <CharlesL> ... overview "an accessible FXL is the baseline WCAG-A does this exclude these titles?
15:30:50 <CharlesL> wendyreid: I hope this document helps fill in the blanks what is not / is possible. that is the goal anyways.
15:31:06 <CharlesL> ... feel free to send Wendy any changes you think should be included.
15:31:26 <wendyreid> zakim, end meeting
15:31:26 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been CharlesL, wendyreid, jgriggs_prh, Hadrien, Simon_M
15:31:28 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:31:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/12-epub-fxl-minutes.html Zakim
15:31:37 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, wendyreid; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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15:31:54 <CharlesL> rrsagent, make logs public