15:07:11 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
15:07:15 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/02/09-rdf-star-irc
15:07:21 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-star
15:08:14 <enrico> enrico has joined #rdf-star
15:08:21 <enrico> present+
15:08:25 <niklasl> niklasl has joined #rdf-star
15:08:35 <TallTed> meeting: RDF-star Semantics TF
15:08:41 <TallTed> present+
15:08:42 <niklasl> present+
15:08:43 <AndyS> present+
15:08:51 <gkellogg> present+
15:09:15 <TallTed> present+ enrico
15:09:22 <enrico> :e rdf:nameOf _:b1 .
15:09:25 <TallTed> present+ tl
15:09:28 <enrico> _:b1 rdf:subject :s .
15:09:36 <enrico> _:b1 rdf:predicate :p .
15:09:37 <TallTed> present+ pfps
15:09:43 <enrico> _:b1 rdf:object :o .
15:09:55 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:09:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/09-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
15:10:01 <TallTed> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:10:23 <enrico> :e rdf:nameOf _:b1 . _:b1 rdf:subject :s . _:b1 rdf:predicate :p . _:b1 rdf:object :o .
15:10:37 <enrico> :e rdf:nameOf _:b2 . _:b2 rdf:subject :s . _:b2 rdf:predicate :p . _:b2 rdf:object :o .
15:11:34 <tl> tl has joined #rdf-star
15:11:49 <TallTed> pronoun "he" does not always mean the same pronoun "he". same with pronoun b-nodes.
15:12:12 <AndyS> "Agreed syntax to Turtle" -- https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2024Feb/0005.html
15:18:06 <niklasl> +1 to Gregg
15:21:12 <gkellogg> My point was to draw a similarity, but incompatibility, between option 1 and option 3. Option 2 seems closer to option 3, but the blank node denotes a triple token (from RDF 1.1 Semantics), which is already different from a triple type.
15:36:45 <tl> repeating this: < :e | :s :p :o >> is IMO a valid alternative to option 3, and maps to option 1 
15:37:08 <tl> << :e | :s :p :o >>  of course
15:37:45 <doerthe> doerthe has joined #rdf-star
15:45:52 <doerthe> can you please re-post, I joined later :)
15:46:45 <TallTed> regrets: ora, az, souri
15:46:45 <TallTed> i|present+ enrico|more discussion of https://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/blob/main/docs/seeking-consensus-2024-01.html
15:47:06 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:47:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/09-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
15:48:10 <TallTed> s/more discussion/topic: more discussion/
15:48:17 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:48:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/09-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
15:48:54 <TallTed> present+ doerthe
15:51:32 <doerthe> thank you, TallTed
15:51:42 <niklasl> Option 1 is "too close" to the token, option 2 is indirecting to tokens as if they where types...
15:52:59 <AndyS> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2024Jan/0138.html
15:53:22 <AndyS> "... with `_:b` a fresh new blank node, unique within the RDF graph."
15:54:29 <enrico> email of the 23rd  January by me with subject [IMPORTANT] Necessary revision of the sugar proposal
15:55:45 <enrico> Email with well-founded condition for option 2: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2024Jan/0138.html
16:09:37 <niklasl> My (perhaps weak) concern with option one (semantically) is that it conflates a triple token and a use of a triple... From another perspective, I also think it easily conflates two or more (see "overclaims" in https://hackmd.io/129IsEZ5S2OaOsD7LOFOKw?view)...
16:11:54 <niklasl> RDF/XML rdf:ID on arcs only works for option 1 with hash IRIs.
16:24:34 <TallTed> assertion != truth!
16:27:38 <niklasl> +1 to how Andy put it re. "why not option 4 / RDFn", basically it may be a good idea if we started defining RDF from scratch.
16:28:31 <niklasl> (Caveat: not sure I paraphrazed it correctly.)
16:29:33 <tl> Option 2 is opaque (through the back door)
16:32:07 <enrico> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2024Jan/0138.html
16:37:58 <tl> s/Option 2 is opaque (through the back door)/Dörthe says that Option 2 introduces opacity through the back door
16:41:49 <enrico> :e1 rdf:nameOf _:b1 . _:b1 rdf:subject :s . _:b1 rdf:predicate :p . _:b1 rdf:object :o .
16:41:55 <enrico> :e2 rdf:nameOf _:b2 . _:b2 rdf:subject :s . _:b2 rdf:predicate :p . _:b2 rdf:object :o .
16:43:51 <enrico> e1 rdf:nameOf _:b1 . _:b1 rdf:subject :s . _:b1 rdf:predicate :p . _:b1 rdf:object :o .
16:43:57 <enrico> :e2 rdf:nameOf _:b2 . _:b2 rdf:subject :ss . _:b2 rdf:predicate :p . _:b2 rdf:object :o . :s owl:same-as :ss .
16:45:17 <doerthe> entails: :e2 rdf:nameOf _:b2 . _:b2 rdf:subject :s . _:b2 rdf:predicate :p . _:b2 rdf:object :o .
16:45:50 <doerthe> but no well-formedness with: entails: :e2 rdf:nameOf _:b2 . _:b2 rdf:subject :s , :ss. _:b2 rdf:predicate :p . _:b2 rdf:object :o .
16:46:21 <doerthe> but no well-formedness with:  :e2 rdf:nameOf _:b2 . _:b2 rdf:subject :s , :ss. _:b2 rdf:predicate :p . _:b2 rdf:object :o .
16:47:42 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
16:49:46 <tl> merging option 1 and 2: [] rdf:subject :s ; rdf:predicate :p ; rdf:object :o ; rdf:hasName :e
16:55:40 <TallTed> Schroedinger's blank node.
17:00:27 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:00:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/09-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:01:04 <doerthe> :D
17:13:48 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
17:49:42 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
18:01:19 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
18:32:01 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
18:46:28 <pfps> pfps has left #rdf-star
18:47:45 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
19:09:17 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
19:28:24 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
20:03:39 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
22:04:00 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
22:29:46 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
23:27:47 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
23:46:05 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
23:55:13 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star