17:55:46 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:55:50 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/02/08-aria-irc
17:55:50 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:55:51 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
17:55:56 <jamesn> chair: JamesNurthen
17:56:07 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
17:56:07 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
17:56:09 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ecffaf8b-8aa7-4acc-b238-6088a86cf12f/20240208T130000/
17:56:09 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:56:09 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New Issue Triage http://tinyurl.com/m3thx384
17:56:09 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New PR Triage http://tinyurl.com/8tuwfzm7
17:56:10 <agendabot> agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Aweb-platform-tests%2Fwpt+is%3Aopen+label%3Awai-aria%2Caccname&type=pullrequests
17:56:13 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning - AccName role traversal? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1821
17:56:16 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Call for consensus: DPUB-ARIA 1.1 to CR https://www.w3.org/TR/dpub-aria-1.1/
17:56:19 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Call for consensus: DPUB-AAM 1.1 to CR https://www.w3.org/TR/dpub-aam-1.1/
17:56:22 <agendabot> agenda+ -> HTML: <callout> element for callouts/alerts/admonitions https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/10100
18:03:01 <Francis_Storr> Francis_Storr has joined #aria
18:03:13 <Francis_Storr> present+
18:03:22 <Rahim> present+
18:03:33 <giacomo-petri> giacomo-petri has joined #aria
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18:03:48 <spectranaut_> present+
18:03:50 <scotto> scotto has joined #aria
18:03:56 <Adam_Page> present+
18:04:17 <scotto> present+
18:04:23 <giacomo-petri> present+
18:04:43 <dmontalvo> present+ Daniel
18:04:47 <Rahim> scribe: Rahim
18:04:55 <CoryJoseph_> CoryJoseph_ has joined #aria
18:04:57 <Rahim> zakim, next item
18:04:57 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage http://tinyurl.com/m3thx384 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:05:04 <melsumner> melsumner has joined #aria
18:05:13 <melsumner> present+
18:05:53 <Rahim> spectranaut_: Scott already made a PR related to core-aam #531
18:06:51 <Rahim> scotto: Interested in getting feedback from people working on WPT
18:07:19 <jcraig> q+
18:07:47 <Rahim> jamesn: Could be worth adding (tests), appear only in editor's draft
18:07:57 <Rahim> scotto: Help identify from spec what we need tests for
18:08:29 <spectranaut_> ack jcraig
18:08:41 <TheoHale> TheoHale has joined #aria
18:08:47 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/respec/issues/4633
18:08:52 <TheoHale> present+
18:09:14 <Rahim> jcraig: Recently filed an issue for re-spec to add something similar to html-aam #527. Talked about an earlier editor's meeting, thinking about a live "Can I Use" directly from ARIA spec. E.g., linking directly to file
18:09:36 <Rahim> ...Bikeshed-style approach could work
18:09:56 <Rahim> ...also talked about labelling tests or groups of tests
18:10:35 <Rahim> scotto: Issue just references links in the table to stuff
18:10:42 <jamesn> q?
18:11:10 <Rahim> jamesn: Consensus is "yes" to doing it; looks editorial in nature
18:12:08 <Rahim> spectranaut_: For aria #2121, if you're interested read the issue. Minor thing
18:12:35 <Rahim> jamesn: aria #2119, have we discussed aria-relevant elsewhere?
18:13:03 <TheoHale_> TheoHale_ has joined #aria
18:13:52 <Rahim> giacomo-petri: Problem I've found is that, the spec does not specify whether AT/UAs how to treat changing values
18:14:22 <keithamus> present+
18:14:25 <sarah_h> sarah_h has joined #aria
18:14:36 <sarah_h> q+
18:14:39 <Rahim> jamesn: My feeling is that, we shouldn't do anything new with live regions until notifications project is shipped (unsure of direction for that)
18:15:13 <Rahim> scotto: I agree; either notifications API could be used for this purpose without extra live regions. I've achieved something similar using aria-describedby
18:15:19 <jcraig> q+
18:15:31 <jamesn> ack sarah_h
18:16:24 <jamesn> ack jcraig
18:16:25 <Rahim> sarah_h: Small suggestion: add something to aria-relevant to core-aam, i.e., live regions shouldn't fire until input
18:16:34 <StefanS> StefanS has joined #aria
18:16:41 <StefanS> present+
18:17:21 <Rahim> jcraig: Making progress in WPT towards this; live regions aren't on the testing roadmap due to complexity in supporting this in WebDriver. Should treat lightly on adding new features to existing ones
18:17:41 <Rahim> ...forward-going changes should have tests
18:18:09 <TheoHale_> +q, after Doug
18:18:10 <Rahim> ...referring to platform/WPT notifications, not notifications API
18:18:29 <TheoHale_> -q
18:18:56 <Rahim> Doug: Edge team has integrated aria-notify into Chromium; will be testing this on a Windows system with Windows screen readers. Some Microsoft partners will also be incorporating aria-notify to do end-to-end testing
18:19:19 <jamesn> q- after
18:19:23 <jamesn> q- Doug
18:19:25 <Rahim> TheoHale_: I'll be helping Doug with this
18:20:13 <Rahim> Doug: Looking forward to working with Theo to complete work on aria-notify
18:20:35 <Rahim> jamesn: Will suggest adding aria #2119 into live region project, unless there are objections
18:21:13 <Rahim> jamesn: For aria #2118, will look at this for future deepdives
18:21:17 <Rahim> zakim, next item
18:21:17 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage http://tinyurl.com/8tuwfzm7 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:22:32 <Rahim> scotto: Ben had filed an issue recently where <label> element was mapped to wrong type in UIA. Identified multiple inconsistencies in spec
18:22:57 <Rahim> jamesn: Other reviewers welcome, but we'll use platform owner
18:23:22 <Rahim> scotto: html-aam #529 is a companion issue
18:23:41 <Rahim> spectranaut_: I can also help review
18:24:39 <Rahim> jcraig: For accname PR #229, don't have approval to merge just yet. Per Valerie, want to wait for additional tests and checking of engine implementations
18:24:49 <Rahim> spectranaut_: That is the new process to wait on aligning implementations before spec incorporation
18:25:03 <melsumner> q+
18:25:45 <Rahim> melsumner: With the new process, do we have labels? E.g., "Not ready for merge"
18:26:17 <jamesn> ack me
18:26:18 <Rahim> spectranaut_: Great idea; haven't used labels in new process. Could use existing  labels, e.g., "waiting for implementation"
18:26:22 <jamesn> ack melsumner
18:26:25 <Rahim> zakim, next item
18:26:25 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Aweb-platform-tests%2Fwpt+is%3Aopen+label%3Awai-aria%2Caccname&type=pullrequests -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:27:40 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria
18:27:55 <Matt_King> present+
18:27:58 <Rahim> Rahim: Happy to merge when others can review
18:28:04 <jamesn> agenda?
18:28:25 <Rahim> jcraig: jugglinmike is working on the subtest count PR
18:28:41 <jcraig> https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt/pull/44457
18:30:01 <Rahim> jcraig: Can move WPT PR #43698 to draft PR to let others know that it's not quite ready
18:30:03 <Rahim> zakim, next item
18:30:03 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning - AccName role traversal? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1821 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:31:31 <Rahim> jamesn: Issue came up as a concern to ensure browsers were broadly consistent
18:31:41 <Rahim> spectranaut_: We don't have label for WPT tests
18:32:26 <Rahim> jamesn: Need to find time with relevant folks to discuss this; don't want to go through proposal and only talk about issue. Need resolutions...should include Aaron/James Teh/WebKit person
18:32:55 <Rahim> ...Is there appetite for this? Also, need representation from WebKit
18:33:41 <Rahim> spectranaut_: Perhaps we should schedule this offline with Aaron/James T. to find a time people can meet? Definitely a deepdive that requires closer look/homework before discussion
18:34:04 <Rahim> Matt_King: Would you consider using a poll to propose dates/times?
18:34:25 <Rahim> spectranaut_: Is there a preferred poll type? E.g., Google Form, W3C poll
18:34:53 <Rahim> jamesn: Please ensure you've studied the issue to help arrive at a consensus (serious folks only apply)
18:35:37 <Rahim> Matt_King: Both Google/W3C polls work equally well from a11y standpoint
18:36:48 <Rahim> jcraig: Some of the most successful versions of these complex issues, a couple people meet before deepdive and prepare thoughts/direction/cross-reference before coming to larger group. I can meet with people ahead of time to do that
18:37:19 <Rahim> scotto: Would be happy to talk to you, James. I'm usually the one going back and forth on it
18:37:55 <Rahim> jcraig: Can write it up as a wiki page so people can correct mistakes/review
18:38:46 <Rahim> jamesn: Keith put a deep dive request in; would you like to set something up and present to folks?
18:38:54 <Rahim> keithamus: Yes, happy to do so for next week
18:39:30 <Rahim> ...(RE: aria #2118)
18:39:50 <Rahim> jamesn: I will set that up for week of Feb 15
18:40:31 <Rahim> Rahim: We don't have any labels for tests?
18:40:52 <jamesn> q?
18:40:52 <Rahim> spectranaut_: I will take this as an action item, i.e., to standardize labels. Need one for WPT investigation in particular
18:41:00 <Rahim> zakim, next item
18:41:00 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> Call for consensus: DPUB-ARIA 1.1 to CR https://www.w3.org/TR/dpub-aria-1.1/ -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:41:21 <Rahim> jamesn: dpub-aria 1.1 wants to go to candidate recommendation
18:41:27 <Rahim> ..does anyone know what the changes are?
18:41:40 <Rahim> dmontalvo: Changes should be in change log
18:41:57 <melsumner> q+ to say that there was another ACCNAME issue marked deep-dive, I might have been missing another label for it to be discussed?
18:42:07 <spectranaut_> +1
18:42:08 <Rahim> jamesn: Many of these changes were made a long time ago. This is a call for consensus so if you agree, put +1 in IRC chat
18:42:14 <Rahim> ...if you don't care, put nothing or 0
18:42:19 <Rahim> ...disagree put -1
18:42:28 <Rahim> ...if you need more time, let us know and we can send a formal call for consensus instead
18:42:31 <jamesn> +1
18:43:15 <jamesn> 01-Dec-2023: Removed the requirements to imply list items descendants of doc-bibliography and doc-endnotes are doc-biblioentry and doc-endnote
18:43:25 <CoryJoseph_> +1
18:43:29 <melsumner> +1
18:43:32 <TheoHale_> +1
18:43:36 <jcraig> +1
18:43:51 <Rahim> jcraig: As an FYI, if it comes up, the doc-biblioentry/doc-endnote were recently changed (James referencing this change log item: "01-Dec-2023: Removed the requirements to imply list items descendants of doc-bibliography and doc-endnotes are doc-biblioentry and doc-endnote")
18:44:10 <Rahim> jamesn: Specific issues can be filed against candidate recommendation, if you want
18:44:14 <Matt_King> +1
18:44:19 <Adam_Page> +1
18:44:23 <Rahim> +1
18:44:26 <scotto> +1
18:44:57 <Rahim> Rahim: Do we have WPT tests for this?
18:45:37 <Rahim> jcraig: Roles are tested as fallback roles (i.e., super class roles). I added a computed role column and testing against that now; hasn't landed yet
18:45:48 <jamesn> RESOLUTION: transition DPUB-ARIA 1.1 to CR https://www.w3.org/TR/dpub-aria-1.1/
18:46:03 <Rahim> jamesn: Will note that this is OK to transition to candidate recommendation
18:46:12 <Rahim> ...will help the get through CR if they can use WPT
18:46:32 <Rahim> jcraig: Most recent changes are a result of WPT testing
18:47:02 <jamesn> agenda?
18:47:06 <Rahim> ...Added tests for it but it's not in the focus area
18:47:15 <Rahim> zakim, next item
18:47:15 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Rahim
18:47:24 <jamesn> q?
18:47:50 <jamesn> ack melsumner
18:47:50 <Zakim> melsumner, you wanted to say that there was another ACCNAME issue marked deep-dive, I might have been missing another label for it to be discussed?
18:48:12 <Rahim> melsumner: Added a deepdive but unsure to add as agenda as well?
18:48:22 <Rahim> zakim, next item
18:48:22 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> Call for consensus: DPUB-AAM 1.1 to CR https://www.w3.org/TR/dpub-aam-1.1/ -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:48:59 <Rahim> jamesn: Even fewer items than dpub-aria 1.1...any objections to moving to CR?
18:49:08 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/dpub-aam/issues/29
18:49:36 <Rahim> jcraig: Computed roles landed in dpub-aam. +1 from me
18:49:51 <Rahim> jamesn: Will put in a resolution. Does anyone object or need more time?
18:49:57 <Rahim> ...Can be moved to email if needed
18:50:22 <jcraig> https://wpt.fyi/results/dpub-aam/role/roles.html?label=experimental&label=master&aligned&q=label%3Aaccessibility
18:51:24 <Rahim> jcraig: I have a process question for Valerie: we had a question on computed role due to differences between WebKit and other browsers. E.g., WebKit's implementation was valid until the recent change but because we don't have at least 2 implementations, is that cause for concern for moving to CR?
18:51:47 <Rahim> jamesn: If we have commitment to implement, not a concern
18:52:13 <Rahim> jcraig: WebKit has a timeline but will not be this year
18:52:26 <Rahim> Matt_King: When does it become evergreen? Is it after this CR exit?
18:52:39 <Rahim> jamesn: I can't recall
18:52:58 <Rahim> dmontalvo: I would need to double-check this as well
18:53:29 <jcraig> +1 to CR for dpub-aam 1.1
18:53:31 <Rahim> jcraig: I think James N. is right; we're moving into CR now so don't think there's a problem. I think it can't move to recommendation yet
18:53:51 <jamesn> RESOLUTION: transition DPUB-AAM 1.1 to CR https://www.w3.org/TR/dpub-aam-1.1/
18:53:51 <Rahim> jamesn: Can I put this resolution in?
18:54:32 <Rahim> Rahim: How can I learn more about W3C standards track?
18:54:39 <spectranaut_> process for busy people: https://github.com/w3c/wg-effectiveness/blob/main/process.md
18:54:47 <Rahim> dmontalvo: Can check out W3C process page
18:54:53 <Rahim> jamesn: Can have Felipe come and chat with the group
18:54:54 <jamesn> agenda?
18:55:02 <jcraig> s/recommendation yet/recommendation yet until the WPT results pass across the board in at least two separate implementations/
18:55:23 <Rahim> zakim, next item
18:55:23 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- -> HTML: <callout> element for callouts/alerts/admonitions https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/10100 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:55:39 <dmontalvo> https://www.w3.org/2023/Process-20231103/#Reports -> Specific section on technical reports
18:56:05 <dmontalvo> s/section on/Process section on/
18:56:55 <Rahim> scotto: There was an issue in HTML spec created to add a <callout> element; gist is that because there are a number of design systems that apply similar stylings to warnings/alerts/notes/tips, etc., they should somehow be one element (I have problems with this). I wanted to bring this to the WG's attention because there was a request for a11y feedback on path forward, and is it a good proposal
18:57:34 <Rahim> ...I do think there's a good reason to add a note element. Other uses cases get tricky because there are existing elements that could be used that are better than an ARIA note role element to convey them
18:58:04 <Rahim> ...I was hoping to talk about it and gather feedback. People can think about it, perhaps start email thread or discuss at a future ARIA WG meeting
18:58:22 <Rahim> ...Based on how these types of issues go in the past, i.e., when a11y people deal with HTML issues may be counterproductive
18:58:38 <CoryJoseph_> q+
18:59:14 <Rahim> Lots of uses cases (like a note in a spec)
18:59:19 <Rahim> melsumner: Like a "Do" or "Don't" note
18:59:31 <jamesn> ack CoryJoseph_
18:59:31 <Rahim> Matt_King: These examples don't seem semantically equivalent
18:59:52 <Rahim> CoryJoseph_: Did we recently discuss a notification role? How would this proposed element coexist with that?
19:00:43 <Rahim> scotto: I think that's kind of the point, i.e., to lump these difference concepts together. And, there already exist semantics to achieve these are already (like not using <div>s)
19:00:52 <Rahim> jamesn: Provide feedback to Scott please
19:13:44 <Rahim> zakim, end meeting
19:13:44 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Francis_Storr, Rahim, spectranaut_, Adam_Page, scotto, giacomo-petri, Daniel, melsumner, TheoHale, keithamus, StefanS, Matt_King
19:13:47 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
19:13:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/02/08-aria-minutes.html Zakim
19:13:57 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Rahim; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
19:13:57 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria