11:56:52 RRSAgent has joined #wot-uc 11:56:56 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/01/31-wot-uc-irc 11:56:58 meeting: WoT Use Cases 11:57:22 present+ Kaz_Ashimura 11:57:28 present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima 11:59:56 luca_barbato has joined #wot-uc 12:01:27 Ege has joined #wot-uc 12:01:34 present+ Ege_Korkan, Luca_Barbato, Michael_Koster, Michael_McCool 12:02:08 mahda-noura has joined #wot-uc 12:02:11 I can scribe today 12:02:25 scribenick: Ege 12:02:28 present+ Mahda_Noura 12:02:40 s/I can scribe today// 12:02:48 agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/IG_UseCase_WebConf#January_31st%2C_2024 12:03:24 topic: Call Organization 12:03:25 present+ Kunihiko_Toumura 12:03:30 ktoumura has joined #wot-uc 12:03:55 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/blob/main/HOWTO.md Proposed workflow 12:04:08 tm: we start with reviewing the minutes and create issues based on identified topics 12:04:24 ... then review issues and PRs with the process label 12:04:33 present+ Michael_Koster 12:04:36 q+ 12:04:57 kaz: basic flows seems good to me, and Ege to it seems 12:05:09 ... we need to think of how to handle existing issues and PRs 12:05:14 ack k 12:05:15 mjk has joined #wot-uc 12:05:35 tm: that means we can approve the proposal 12:06:00 q+ 12:06:26 ack k 12:06:44 topic: minutes review 12:06:50 kaz: I have added you as chair, please reload 12:07:04 i|I have|-> https://www.w3.org/2024/01/24-wot-uc-minutes.html Jan-24 minutes| 12:07:34 s/minutes review/Minutes review and GitHub Issue creation/ 12:07:52 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/blob/main/HOWTO.md Proposed Issue from the previous minutes 12:08:26 tm: I don't need to create an issue about the first discussion but I will think about the workflow 12:08:46 ... I have created an issue about how to handle generic use case 12:09:14 i|I don't|subtopic: How to deal with GitHub Issues/PRs?| 12:09:47 i|I have|subtopic: How to extract information, e.g., about requirements, from the UC description?| 12:09:59 ... also another one about what level of details UCs should be, I have created an issue 12:10:15 i|also|subtopic: When/which level of UC description to be generated?| 12:10:20 rrsagent, make log public 12:10:23 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:10:25 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/31-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 12:10:40 q+ 12:11:04 ... for the submission workflow clarification raised by Ege, I have created an issue 12:11:29 ack k 12:11:55 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:11:57 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/31-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 12:12:20 chair: Mizushima 12:13:13 i|for the submission work|subtopic: Who/how to submit UCs?| 12:13:18 ... the next part was how to deal with the gap analysis 12:13:41 i|the next|subtopic: How to deal with gap analysis?| 12:14:14 ... it is an important topic, with already two issues from Ege. I have created another one 12:15:23 subtopic: Technical use cases vs Functional use cases 12:15:47 present+ Cristiano_Aguzzi 12:15:53 tm: regarding this topic, there is an existing issue from McCool that we can use 12:16:05 cris_ has joined #wot-uc 12:16:08 subtopic: How to manage the feedback from brainstorming discussions? 12:16:22 q? 12:16:26 tm: we don't need to create an issue 12:16:27 q+ 12:16:34 mm: that's fine 12:16:53 +1 12:17:00 tm: so any questions or changes to minutes? 12:17:07 i/that's/scribenick: kaz/ 12:17:09 ek: I like the approach, thank you 12:17:15 s/so any/scribenick: Ege/ 12:17:15 tm: minutes are approved 12:17:41 tm: can we approve the extraction? 12:17:42 q+ 12:18:11 q+ 12:18:32 ack e 12:19:22 ek: We can approve the extraction. Can you add your name for your comments? 12:19:42 kaz: I think these are not his opinions but the decisions 12:19:58 ... we should label those issues with "Process" label 12:20:32 tm: I have created a "Process" label in the use cases repository 12:21:22 tm: any other questions? 12:21:25 s/the decisions/the decisions are made simply based on whether there is already a related Issue or not/ 12:21:44 tm: extracted topics are approved 12:22:13 q+ 12:23:11 ack k 12:23:24 topic: Review the GitHub Issues/PRs with "Process" label 12:23:55 tm: We can talk about the process labeled issues so that we can improve the process document 12:24:30 q+ 12:25:00 q+ 12:25:23 https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/pull/262 I meant this one 12:25:33 ek: should we discuss that? 12:25:43 ... sorry I did not see that it is labeled with process 12:25:50 kaz: yes it is in scope 12:25:58 ack k 12:26:09 ack e 12:26:18 tm: Yes if we have time 12:26:21 q? 12:27:23 q+ 12:27:41 ack k 12:28:00 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/blob/main/Process.md Proposed Process.md 12:28:11 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3AProcess Issues with "Process" label 12:29:10 mm: we can start with the functional requirements or not 12:29:30 i/we can/subtopic: Issue 257/ 12:29:53 i|we can|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/issues/257 Issue 257 - [Discuss] Focus on Functional Requirements| 12:30:00 rrsagent, make log public 12:30:04 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:30:06 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/31-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 12:31:11 tm: we should explain the difference between use cases and user stories 12:32:42 q+ 12:34:33 s/scribenick: Ege que/so any que/ 12:34:38 mm: the discussion to have is whether use cases need to be low level or not 12:34:43 i|questions or changes|scribenick: Ege| 12:34:45 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:34:46 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/31-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 12:35:04 ... toumura-san's comment suggest different templates. 12:35:12 q+ 12:35:35 mm: I think we can move the categorization to separate issue 12:36:21 ml: there is also the discussion on whether we should consider business requirements which are even higher level 12:37:01 q? 12:37:25 kaz: I agree with mm and have several comments 12:38:30 ... maybe the comments from toumura-san and ege are about templates 12:38:34 ack k 12:39:00 McCool_ has joined #wot-uc 12:39:02 s/templates/templates and to be filed as another issue on the description and template./ 12:39:17 q+ 12:39:21 q+ 12:40:00 s/I agree with mm and have several comments/I agree with McCool and think we should focus on function level description for Use Cases and Requirements for the Use Cases and Requirements document./ 12:40:09 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:40:10 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/31-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 12:40:44 s/function level/functional level/ 12:41:21 s/Requirements document/Requirements document to describe users' story and need/ 12:41:23 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:41:24 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/31-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 12:41:35 qq+ 12:42:05 ack ka 12:42:05 kaz, you wanted to react to kaz 12:42:27 s/kaz, you wanted to react to kaz// 12:42:51 ek: I think we need to agree on the definition of use case, user stories, functional and technical requirements 12:42:57 +1 12:43:29 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:44:00 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/31-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 12:44:06 ek: I want to stress that we need technical details from the inputs of users. Otherwise they are too high level and cannot be used for feature extraction 12:44:06 q+ 12:44:06 ack e 12:44:13 ack mc 12:44:15 ... if they are for outreach items, that should be a separate category like toumura-san has mentioned 12:44:16 q? 12:44:32 tm: I think that use cases document should be about functional requirements 12:44:59 i|I think|scribenick: kaz| 12:45:06 mm: (before tm) we should not overconstrain the requirements that will constrain the specifications. E.g. oauth2 is technical requirement, access control is functional requirment 12:45:17 i|I think|mm: some examples:| 12:45:19 q+ 12:45:25 ack m 12:46:38 kaz: we need multiple levels. A high level use case and another detailed one for the requirements 12:46:55 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:46:57 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/31-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 12:47:21 s/examples:/examples@@@/ 12:47:35 i|I think that use cases|scribenick: Ege| 12:47:38 q? 12:47:38 q+ 12:47:41 ack k 12:47:42 q+ 12:47:53 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:47:54 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/31-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 12:48:08 q+ 12:49:37 ack Ege 12:49:44 ack McCool_ 12:50:08 s/A high level use case and another detailed one for the requirements/Functional level description about users' need for use cases, and another Technical level of description for Requirements description./ 12:50:17 ek: We need as technical as possible for driving specifications. From TD TF point of view, I do not care about anything high level since they cannot be used for specification development. Thus, it is better to separate them from the beginning as toumura-san has proposed 12:50:55 https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/issues/257#issuecomment-1919034881 12:51:08 https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/issues/257#issuecomment-1919037539 12:51:23 mm: I have commented in the issue 12:51:26 q+ 12:52:14 kaz; I think we should clarify different requirment styles 12:52:30 ... we want submitters to explain their stories. This seems to be something we agree on. 12:53:10 ... I think what mccool meant is that we need user stories first 12:53:25 ack k 12:53:50 q+ 12:54:15 ack cr 12:54:55 ca: Couple of comments. I kind of support Ege with the bottom-up approach. We have done work on going through issues and they are very actionable 12:55:07 ... we can write a use case from such issues 12:55:50 ... sometimes use cases are mixed with stories. Sometimes they are feature descriptions. So we should clarify the definition first 12:56:08 q+ 12:56:19 ack e 12:56:25 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:56:26 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/31-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 12:56:32 q+ 12:56:43 s/kaz;/kaz:/ 12:56:44 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:56:45 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/31-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 12:57:31 s/different requirment styles/what we mean by "Functional" and "Technical" clearer/ 12:57:53 q? 12:57:56 ack mj 12:58:21 ek: In the example we are seeing, I want the technical requirement to be submitted to specifications. Otherwise spec work cannot proceed 12:58:35 s/we want submitters to explain their stories/we want use case submitters to explain their "User Scenario" (or "User Story") a bit in detail for their use cases/ 12:58:44 s/agree on/agreed on/ 12:58:58 s/mccool/McCool/ 12:59:06 mjk: I think that the problem is split. Functional requirement is high level, a description of the problem. 12:59:17 q+ 12:59:18 ... we should maybe have more requirements without designing the solution 12:59:52 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:59:54 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/31-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz 13:00:01 ... in some cases, the solution can be visible in the requirement since a certain stack might be needed 13:00:12 ack mjk 13:00:20 ack mc 13:00:46 ack cris_ 13:01:20 mm: I agree both points. It is just about where the work takes place. 13:02:28 scribenick: kaz 13:02:28 ca: I recommend reading the shacl use cases and requirements document above 13:02:39 i/I recommend/scribenick: Ege/ 13:03:24 i/I recommend/kaz: sorry but we're out of time. anyway we've clarified the basic workflow, and have started actual discussion based on that. thank you very for organizing the discussion, Mizushima-san!/ 13:03:28 [adjourned] 13:03:32 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:03:33 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/31-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz