IRC log of matf on 2024-01-29
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 20:02:25 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #matf
- 20:02:30 [RRSAgent]
- logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/01/29-matf-irc
- 20:02:30 [Zakim]
- RRSAgent, make logs Public
- 20:02:31 [Zakim]
- please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ
- 20:02:41 [karen]
- karen has joined #MATF
- 20:02:45 [JJ]
- Zakim, this is MATF January 29, 2024
- 20:02:45 [Zakim]
- got it, JJ
- 20:02:56 [JJ]
- present+
- 20:02:59 [karen]
- present+
- 20:03:00 [hdv]
- present+
- 20:03:10 [JJ]
- Jeanne is also present
- 20:03:14 [Carolina_Crespo]
- Carolina_Crespo has joined #MATF
- 20:03:22 [Carolina_Crespo]
- present
- 20:03:27 [hdv]
- present+ Jeanne
- 20:03:42 [JJ]
- present+ Jeanne
- 20:03:47 [hdv]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes please
- 20:03:48 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/29-matf-minutes.html hdv
- 20:03:59 [JJ]
- TOPIC: New participants
- 20:04:25 [JJ]
- Meeting: MATF January 29, 2024
- 20:05:29 [hdv]
- JJ: we're trying to change direction for this group to be more focused on apps, primarily Android and iOS
- 20:05:42 [hdv]
- scribenick: hdv
- 20:06:15 [hdv]
- JJ: will probably separate into two meetings, one US friendly and one EU friendly, and try and also make it work for Asia, and find a time where I can make these meetings too
- 20:06:57 [JJ]
- Karen: works at Salesforce, excited to work on accessibility guidelines for mobile
- 20:09:44 [hdv]
- JJ: I work for Abra, my own app consultancy, also share knowledge via the Appt foundation
- 20:10:52 [hdv]
- JJ: I joined this TF ~2 years ago, mostly because I was interested in how WCAG applies to apps because of legislation, first in NL, but then found it was similar in Europe and US
- 20:11:15 [hdv]
- JJ: would be nice if we could make this become part of new legislation
- 20:11:44 [hdv]
- JJ: now WCAG2ICT is used in the European standard… I think it is the best out there for non websites, but we can probably do better and not just focus on website but specifically on Android and iOS
- 20:12:04 [hdv]
- JJ: so the focus of this taskforce to map WCAG to apps… may also work on our own guidance in the future
- 20:12:19 [hdv]
- JJ: probably want to focus on publishing a working group note
- 20:12:39 [hdv]
- JJ: with the goal of improving mobile accessibility
- 20:13:13 [hdv]
- JJ: it's probably ideal to make a standard specifically for apps, but in the meantime legislation embeds WCAG for apps, so that's something we have to work with
- 20:13:17 [JJ]
- Carolina: works at TPGi, senior accessibility engineer, performing audits
- 20:13:21 [JJ]
- Jeanne: also works at TPGi, works on accessibility since 2018, worked on native mobile accessibility
- 20:13:25 [JJ]
- Hidde: here on behalf of Logius, Dutch government department, recently started working on accessibility standards for them.
- 20:14:06 [hdv]
- JJ: how is everyone currently working on accessibiliy of mobile apps?
- 20:14:36 [hdv]
- karen: I work on a11y of native apps at Salesforce…we don't currently have standards but am working on that
- 20:14:40 [JJ]
- Karen: reach out of your own bubble, see how others are doing guidance
- 20:15:02 [hdv]
- JJ: do you also do audits?
- 20:15:05 [hdv]
- karen: mostly consulting with teams
- 20:15:25 [hdv]
- karen: but have my own LLC to provide consultancy and audits
- 20:15:41 [hdv]
- JJ: how about you Carolina?
- 20:16:03 [hdv]
- Carolina_Crespo: we do audits, also looking for different opinions to what we are doing
- 20:16:25 [hdv]
- JJ: same here… nice to talk to people in other organisations, to try and get some consistency
- 20:16:31 [hdv]
- s/JJ/Jeanne
- 20:16:51 [hdv]
- Jeanne: consistency is so important… with mobile we're all over the place, especially with updats
- 20:16:56 [hdv]
- s/updats/updates
- 20:17:07 [JJ]
- Karen: it's the wild west of accessibility
- 20:17:59 [JJ]
- hdv: Mostly interested in the legal / standards part of mobile accessibility
- 20:18:31 [hdv]
- JJ: I'm interested in dealing with mixed content, like an app that loads a website
- 20:19:17 [hdv]
- JJ: lots of apps have a mix of native controls, web views and PDFs
- 20:19:46 [hdv]
- Jeanne: absolutely… have to deal with difference between native and web views all the time
- 20:20:16 [hdv]
- s/accessibiliy/accessibility
- 20:20:47 [hdv]
- JJ: I feel it would make sense to split guidance between iOS and Android
- 20:21:09 [hdv]
- JJ: as there's differences between what we can test and what's technically possible on specific platforms
- 20:21:33 [hdv]
- JJ: and then there's cross platform apps and apps built with web frameworks
- 20:22:15 [hdv]
- JJ: with some frameworks it seems almost impossible to build WCAG compliant UIs
- 20:22:39 [JJ]
- Topic: Which assistive tech do you use to audit apps?
- 20:22:45 [hdv]
- Jeanne: I sue keyboard
- 20:22:49 [hdv]
- s/sue/use
- 20:23:37 [hdv]
- JJ: we use hardware keyboards, but also voice control and switch controls… some available on iOS some on Android
- 20:24:05 [hdv]
- Carolina_Crespo: also resizing text
- 20:24:29 [hdv]
- JJ: can be tricky to audit text on iOS that uses dynamic sizing
- 20:24:45 [hdv]
- JJ: seems every company has their own way of testing these kinds of things
- 20:25:16 [hdv]
- JJ: apps also get different audit results depending on which firm audited
- 20:25:47 [hdv]
- JJ: one thing I'd also like to focus on in this task force is WCAG-EM… it's based on websites and samples and URLs… there's no official interpretation of that for apps
- 20:26:06 [hdv]
- JJ: my goal would be to do the mapping but also look at testing
- 20:26:14 [hdv]
- JJ: not sure if that is one document or multiple
- 20:26:49 [hdv]
- JJ: I feel using screenshots are helpful in app audits because we can't show code or codepens like we can in website audits
- 20:27:04 [hdv]
- JJ: I also wonder how we can do this in the W3C format
- 20:27:23 [hdv]
- Topic: Slack channel
- 20:27:33 [hdv]
- JJ: I made a private channel at the Appt foundation
- 20:28:09 [hdv]
- JJ: there's also a W3C community Slack… maybe it would make more sense to work from there, but they don't have a full plan, so no more than 90 days of history
- 20:28:16 [hdv]
- q+
- 20:29:57 [hdv]
- hdv: I think a lot of the work would happen on GitHub, IRC, calls like this and mailing lists anyway, so 90 days limit might not be too much of an issue
- 20:30:07 [hdv]
- Topic: updating resources
- 20:30:29 [hdv]
- JJ: goal here is to have up to date descriptions on W3C pages
- 20:30:40 [hdv]
- JJ: there's a page with old content on the old Mobile taskforce
- 20:31:04 [hdv]
- JJ: I expect these will be updated by February with new content
- 20:31:09 [JJ]
- List of changes: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JfpcOW5mzpDYDgpxc59PEeqwRxetw6yT8_6SASJIi8I/edit#heading=h.pfr62fbrlzoa
- 20:31:29 [JJ]
- JJ: URL's to be updated:
- 20:31:32 [JJ]
- JJ: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/
- 20:31:42 [JJ]
- JJ: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/
- 20:31:49 [JJ]
- JJ: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/communication
- 20:31:54 [JJ]
- JJ: https://www.w3.org/groups/tf/mobile-a11y-tf/
- 20:32:01 [JJ]
- JJ: https://www.w3.org/groups/tf/mobile-a11y-tf/tools/
- 20:32:41 [JJ]
- Hidde: URL's prefixed /WAI/GL need to be updated by W3C web admin
- 20:33:20 [JJ]
- Hidde: URL's prefixed with /groups are on Github (partly)
- 20:34:22 [hdv]
- JJ: our repository will be `w3c/matf `
- 20:34:35 [hdv]
- https://github.com/w3c/matf
- 20:35:07 [hdv]
- JJ: is everyone familiar with Markdown?
- 20:35:26 [hdv]
- JJ: plan would be to have one file per Success Criterion
- 20:35:52 [hdv]
- Respec
- 20:36:06 [JJ]
- Hidde: Respec generator https://github.com/w3c/respec
- 20:36:56 [hdv]
- karen: the way ACT work has a great GitHub workflow
- 20:37:29 [hdv]
- karen: not sure what tool they're using but it works great
- 20:38:16 [hdv]
- JJ: will also look at how AGWG are using Discussions on GitHub
- 20:38:56 [hdv]
- JJ: seems like GitHub and Markdown can be our tools of choice, and probably Google Drive too
- 20:39:39 [hdv]
- JJ: there is a Google Drive we use to gather information
- 20:39:43 [JJ]
- JJ: https://drive.google.com/drive/u/1/folders/1Q9md2AvmeTgvsT9GB62BsGvCaalDGtE6
- 20:40:05 [JJ]
- JJ: Shortlink = https://matf.to/drive
- 20:41:53 [hdv]
- Topic: timing of the meeting
- 20:42:11 [hdv]
- JJ: can you write preferences into IRC?
- 20:42:34 [karen]
- I'm Eastern Time Zone in the US.
- 20:42:46 [hdv]
- Jeanne: mine are Wednesday mornings in Central, US
- 20:42:57 [Carolina_Crespo]
- I am Eastern Time Zone in Canada
- 20:43:16 [karen]
- Karen: Mornings before 11 EST. All day Thursday
- 20:43:22 [JJ]
- Jeanne: Try to avoid Wednesday morning in Central US timezone
- 20:43:24 [hdv]
- s/mine/my time to avoid
- 20:43:55 [karen]
- Karen - best times before 11 EST, all day thursday
- 20:44:08 [hdv]
- my best time would be ET after 3pm
- 20:44:12 [Carolina_Crespo]
- Mornings before 11 except Fridays. Monday 3pm to 4pm works
- 20:44:41 [JJ]
- JJ: 9 AM - 5 PM in GMT+1 timezone, Mon-Thur, no specific best time
- 20:45:32 [karen]
- Karen: once we have a schedule, we can schedule other meetings around it
- 20:45:33 [hdv]
- JJ: I'll pick a time… there's hopefully 5 or so more people joining in February
- 20:46:32 [hdv]
- JJ: 'homework': if you have any resources that you use, please email those to me
- 20:46:55 [hdv]
- karen: is this a Task Force or Community Group?
- 20:47:15 [hdv]
- JJ: they have to be a member of AGWG
- 20:47:29 [hdv]
- JJ: a couple of people have applied to be Invited Experts
- 20:48:02 [hdv]
- JJ: would be nice to get wider feedback
- 20:48:41 [hdv]
- karen: do we have a representation of people with disabilities in this group?
- 20:48:50 [hdv]
- JJ: not sure if we do at the moment
- 20:52:34 [hdv]
- JJ: would also like to collaborate with COGA, APA and WCAG3
- 20:53:42 [hdv]
- Jeanne: I'm also in COGA
- 20:54:43 [hdv]
- hdv: should probably also work together ACT TF
- 20:58:40 [hdv]
- RRSAgent, make minutes
- 20:58:42 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/29-matf-minutes.html hdv