20:02:25 RRSAgent has joined #matf 20:02:30 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/01/29-matf-irc 20:02:30 RRSAgent, make logs Public 20:02:31 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ 20:02:41 karen has joined #MATF 20:02:45 Zakim, this is MATF January 29, 2024 20:02:45 got it, JJ 20:02:56 present+ 20:02:59 present+ 20:03:00 present+ 20:03:10 Jeanne is also present 20:03:14 Carolina_Crespo has joined #MATF 20:03:22 present 20:03:27 present+ Jeanne 20:03:42 present+ Jeanne 20:03:47 RRSAgent, draft minutes please 20:03:48 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/29-matf-minutes.html hdv 20:03:59 TOPIC: New participants 20:04:25 Meeting: MATF January 29, 2024 20:05:29 JJ: we're trying to change direction for this group to be more focused on apps, primarily Android and iOS 20:05:42 scribenick: hdv 20:06:15 JJ: will probably separate into two meetings, one US friendly and one EU friendly, and try and also make it work for Asia, and find a time where I can make these meetings too 20:06:57 Karen: works at Salesforce, excited to work on accessibility guidelines for mobile 20:09:44 JJ: I work for Abra, my own app consultancy, also share knowledge via the Appt foundation 20:10:52 JJ: I joined this TF ~2 years ago, mostly because I was interested in how WCAG applies to apps because of legislation, first in NL, but then found it was similar in Europe and US 20:11:15 JJ: would be nice if we could make this become part of new legislation 20:11:44 JJ: now WCAG2ICT is used in the European standard… I think it is the best out there for non websites, but we can probably do better and not just focus on website but specifically on Android and iOS 20:12:04 JJ: so the focus of this taskforce to map WCAG to apps… may also work on our own guidance in the future 20:12:19 JJ: probably want to focus on publishing a working group note 20:12:39 JJ: with the goal of improving mobile accessibility 20:13:13 JJ: it's probably ideal to make a standard specifically for apps, but in the meantime legislation embeds WCAG for apps, so that's something we have to work with 20:13:17 Carolina: works at TPGi, senior accessibility engineer, performing audits 20:13:21 Jeanne: also works at TPGi, works on accessibility since 2018, worked on native mobile accessibility 20:13:25 Hidde: here on behalf of Logius, Dutch government department, recently started working on accessibility standards for them. 20:14:06 JJ: how is everyone currently working on accessibiliy of mobile apps? 20:14:36 karen: I work on a11y of native apps at Salesforce…we don't currently have standards but am working on that 20:14:40 Karen: reach out of your own bubble, see how others are doing guidance 20:15:02 JJ: do you also do audits? 20:15:05 karen: mostly consulting with teams 20:15:25 karen: but have my own LLC to provide consultancy and audits 20:15:41 JJ: how about you Carolina? 20:16:03 Carolina_Crespo: we do audits, also looking for different opinions to what we are doing 20:16:25 JJ: same here… nice to talk to people in other organisations, to try and get some consistency 20:16:31 s/JJ/Jeanne 20:16:51 Jeanne: consistency is so important… with mobile we're all over the place, especially with updats 20:16:56 s/updats/updates 20:17:07 Karen: it's the wild west of accessibility 20:17:59 hdv: Mostly interested in the legal / standards part of mobile accessibility 20:18:31 JJ: I'm interested in dealing with mixed content, like an app that loads a website 20:19:17 JJ: lots of apps have a mix of native controls, web views and PDFs 20:19:46 Jeanne: absolutely… have to deal with difference between native and web views all the time 20:20:16 s/accessibiliy/accessibility 20:20:47 JJ: I feel it would make sense to split guidance between iOS and Android 20:21:09 JJ: as there's differences between what we can test and what's technically possible on specific platforms 20:21:33 JJ: and then there's cross platform apps and apps built with web frameworks 20:22:15 JJ: with some frameworks it seems almost impossible to build WCAG compliant UIs 20:22:39 Topic: Which assistive tech do you use to audit apps? 20:22:45 Jeanne: I sue keyboard 20:22:49 s/sue/use 20:23:37 JJ: we use hardware keyboards, but also voice control and switch controls… some available on iOS some on Android 20:24:05 Carolina_Crespo: also resizing text 20:24:29 JJ: can be tricky to audit text on iOS that uses dynamic sizing 20:24:45 JJ: seems every company has their own way of testing these kinds of things 20:25:16 JJ: apps also get different audit results depending on which firm audited 20:25:47 JJ: one thing I'd also like to focus on in this task force is WCAG-EM… it's based on websites and samples and URLs… there's no official interpretation of that for apps 20:26:06 JJ: my goal would be to do the mapping but also look at testing 20:26:14 JJ: not sure if that is one document or multiple 20:26:49 JJ: I feel using screenshots are helpful in app audits because we can't show code or codepens like we can in website audits 20:27:04 JJ: I also wonder how we can do this in the W3C format 20:27:23 Topic: Slack channel 20:27:33 JJ: I made a private channel at the Appt foundation 20:28:09 JJ: there's also a W3C community Slack… maybe it would make more sense to work from there, but they don't have a full plan, so no more than 90 days of history 20:28:16 q+ 20:29:57 hdv: I think a lot of the work would happen on GitHub, IRC, calls like this and mailing lists anyway, so 90 days limit might not be too much of an issue 20:30:07 Topic: updating resources 20:30:29 JJ: goal here is to have up to date descriptions on W3C pages 20:30:40 JJ: there's a page with old content on the old Mobile taskforce 20:31:04 JJ: I expect these will be updated by February with new content 20:31:09 List of changes: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JfpcOW5mzpDYDgpxc59PEeqwRxetw6yT8_6SASJIi8I/edit#heading=h.pfr62fbrlzoa 20:31:29 JJ: URL's to be updated: 20:31:32 JJ: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/ 20:31:42 JJ: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/ 20:31:49 JJ: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/communication 20:31:54 JJ: https://www.w3.org/groups/tf/mobile-a11y-tf/ 20:32:01 JJ: https://www.w3.org/groups/tf/mobile-a11y-tf/tools/ 20:32:41 Hidde: URL's prefixed /WAI/GL need to be updated by W3C web admin 20:33:20 Hidde: URL's prefixed with /groups are on Github (partly) 20:34:22 JJ: our repository will be `w3c/matf ` 20:34:35 https://github.com/w3c/matf 20:35:07 JJ: is everyone familiar with Markdown? 20:35:26 JJ: plan would be to have one file per Success Criterion 20:35:52 Respec 20:36:06 Hidde: Respec generator https://github.com/w3c/respec 20:36:56 karen: the way ACT work has a great GitHub workflow 20:37:29 karen: not sure what tool they're using but it works great 20:38:16 JJ: will also look at how AGWG are using Discussions on GitHub 20:38:56 JJ: seems like GitHub and Markdown can be our tools of choice, and probably Google Drive too 20:39:39 JJ: there is a Google Drive we use to gather information 20:39:43 JJ: https://drive.google.com/drive/u/1/folders/1Q9md2AvmeTgvsT9GB62BsGvCaalDGtE6 20:40:05 JJ: Shortlink = https://matf.to/drive 20:41:53 Topic: timing of the meeting 20:42:11 JJ: can you write preferences into IRC? 20:42:34 I'm Eastern Time Zone in the US. 20:42:46 Jeanne: mine are Wednesday mornings in Central, US 20:42:57 I am Eastern Time Zone in Canada 20:43:16 Karen: Mornings before 11 EST. All day Thursday 20:43:22 Jeanne: Try to avoid Wednesday morning in Central US timezone 20:43:24 s/mine/my time to avoid 20:43:55 Karen - best times before 11 EST, all day thursday 20:44:08 my best time would be ET after 3pm 20:44:12 Mornings before 11 except Fridays. Monday 3pm to 4pm works 20:44:41 JJ: 9 AM - 5 PM in GMT+1 timezone, Mon-Thur, no specific best time 20:45:32 Karen: once we have a schedule, we can schedule other meetings around it 20:45:33 JJ: I'll pick a time… there's hopefully 5 or so more people joining in February 20:46:32 JJ: 'homework': if you have any resources that you use, please email those to me 20:46:55 karen: is this a Task Force or Community Group? 20:47:15 JJ: they have to be a member of AGWG 20:47:29 JJ: a couple of people have applied to be Invited Experts 20:48:02 JJ: would be nice to get wider feedback 20:48:41 karen: do we have a representation of people with disabilities in this group? 20:48:50 JJ: not sure if we do at the moment 20:52:34 JJ: would also like to collaborate with COGA, APA and WCAG3 20:53:42 Jeanne: I'm also in COGA 20:54:43 hdv: should probably also work together ACT TF 20:58:40 RRSAgent, make minutes 20:58:42 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/29-matf-minutes.html hdv