IRC log of apa on 2024-01-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/01/24-apa-irc

14:00:06 [Zakim]

RRSAgent, make logs Public

14:00:07 [Zakim]

please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), janina

14:00:26 [janina]

Meeting: APA Weekly Teleconference

14:00:36 [janina]

Date: 24 Jan 2024

14:00:41 [janina]

Chair: Janina

14:00:41 [janina]

agenda+ Agenda Review & Announcements

14:00:41 [janina]

agenda+ New Charters Review https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Horizontal+review+requested%22

14:00:44 [janina]

agenda+ A11y Review Comment Tracker https://w3c.github.io/horizontal-issue-tracker/?repo=w3c/a11y-review

14:00:47 [janina]

agenda+ Explicit Review Requests https://github.com/w3c/a11y-request/issues

14:00:50 [janina]

agenda+ new on TR http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html

14:00:52 [janina]

agenda+ CSS Update (Paul) https://github.com/w3c/css-a11y/issues

14:00:55 [janina]

agenda+ Actions Checkin (Specs) https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/open

14:00:57 [janina]

agenda+ Task Force & Deliverables Updates

14:01:00 [janina]

agenda+ Other Business

14:01:02 [janina]

agenda+ be done

14:01:15 [janina]

/join #rqtf

14:01:29 [janina]

present+

14:02:28 [janina]

present+

14:04:45 [janina]

scribe+

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14:55:47 [janina]

present+

14:56:04 [janina]

regrets: Leandro, Niklaus

14:56:39 [janina]

regrets+ Alisa

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14:58:19 [Dr_Keith]

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present+

14:59:02 [Roy]

present+

14:59:12 [Fazio]

present+

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present+

15:00:35 [PaulG]

present+

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15:01:57 [janina]

zakim, pick a victim

15:01:57 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose janina

15:02:08 [janina]

zakim, pick a victim

15:02:08 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose janina

15:02:13 [janina]

zakim, pick a victim

15:02:13 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose janina

15:03:01 [mike_beganyi]

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15:03:08 [mike_beganyi]

present+

15:03:23 [janina]

zakim, who's here?

15:03:23 [Zakim]

Present: janina, Dr_Keith, Roy, Fazio, uxjennifer, PaulG, mike_beganyi

15:03:25 [Zakim]

On IRC I see mike_beganyi, Lionel_Wolberger, uxjennifer, Dr_Keith, Fazio, PaulG, Roy, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, gb, matrix638, AnthonySpencer, sonicscrewdriver, imlostlmao,

15:03:25 [Zakim]

... gonzu_15, M2cshkpcgrp, joraboi445, SintayewGashaw, slightlyoff, Rachael, cwilso, tink, ada, jcraig, agendabot

15:03:31 [Lionel_Wolberger]

present+

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15:03:53 [PaulG]

zakim, take up next item

15:03:53 [Zakim]

agendum 1 -- Agenda Review & Announcements -- taken up [from janina]

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15:04:01 [IrfanAli]

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scribe+

15:04:37 [Lionel_Wolberger]

zakim, who is here?

15:04:37 [Zakim]

Present: janina, Dr_Keith, Roy, Fazio, uxjennifer, PaulG, mike_beganyi, Lionel_Wolberger

15:04:39 [Zakim]

On IRC I see IrfanAli, Nichole, nigel, nehaj, mike_beganyi, Lionel_Wolberger, uxjennifer, Dr_Keith, Fazio, PaulG, Roy, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, gb, matrix638, AnthonySpencer,

15:04:39 [Zakim]

... sonicscrewdriver, imlostlmao, gonzu_15, M2cshkpcgrp, joraboi445, SintayewGashaw, slightlyoff, Rachael, cwilso, tink, ada, jcraig, agendabot

15:04:42 [nehaj]

present+

15:05:02 [Lionel_Wolberger]

IrfanAli: There won't be an update from pronunciation today

15:05:13 [IrfanAli]

present+

15:05:15 [Lionel_Wolberger]

PaulG: No update from CSS planned for today, either

15:05:27 [PaulG]

zakim, take up next item

15:05:27 [Zakim]

agendum 2 -- New Charters Review https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Horizontal+review+requested%22 -- taken up [from janina]

15:06:30 [PaulG]

Roy: no new charters this week

15:06:33 [PaulG]

zakim, take up next item

15:06:34 [Zakim]

agendum 3 -- A11y Review Comment Tracker https://w3c.github.io/horizontal-issue-tracker/?repo=w3c/a11y-review -- taken up [from janina]

15:06:47 [PaulG]

Roy: no new comments this week

15:07:05 [PaulG]

zakim, take up next item

15:07:05 [Zakim]

agendum 3 was just opened, PaulG

15:07:12 [PaulG]

zakim, close this item

15:07:12 [Zakim]

agendum 3 closed

15:07:13 [Zakim]

I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

15:07:13 [Zakim]

4. Explicit Review Requests https://github.com/w3c/a11y-request/issues [from janina]

15:07:18 [Roy]

subtopic: Bitstring Status List v1.0

15:07:19 [Roy]

- issue: https://github.com/w3c/a11y-request/issues/70

15:07:19 [Roy]

- spec: https://w3c.github.io/vc-bitstring-status-list/

15:07:19 [gb]

https://github.com/w3c/a11y-request/issues/70 -> Issue 70 Bitstring Status List v1.0 2024-01-21 > 2024-02-13 (by msporny) [LC] [REVIEW REQUESTED] [pending]

15:07:21 [PaulG]

zakim, take up item 4

15:07:21 [Zakim]

agendum 4 -- Explicit Review Requests https://github.com/w3c/a11y-request/issues -- taken up [from janina]

15:07:39 [PaulG]

Roy: verifiable credentials has a request

15:08:05 [Roy]

https://w3c.github.io/vc-bitstring-status-list/#accessibility-considerations

15:08:42 [PaulG]

Roy: there are some accessibility considerations

15:09:07 [PaulG]

Lionel_Wolberger: they are being strategic in citing a previous set of considerations

15:09:28 [PaulG]

janina: inheritied concerns are fine as long as they are cited

15:10:46 [Fazio]

I'm concerned it targets an exclusive user group

15:10:53 [PaulG]

Lionel_Wolberger: when you take a data-first approach, it can be confusing. For example, a date without a timezone.

15:11:01 [Fazio]

not inclusive of broader disabilities

15:12:08 [PaulG]

Fazio: I think we're not thinking broad enough with the data-first approach

15:13:02 [PaulG]

Lionel_Wolberger: you're correct. This is more screen reader user centric and images might improve accessibility for some folks

15:13:22 [PaulG]

Fazio: it's common enough

15:14:10 [PaulG]

janina: I just had a conversation about adding descriptions to sonic events for D/deaf users

15:14:45 [PaulG]

...we can have multiple descriptions for different audiences.

15:15:36 [Fazio]

Maur

15:15:40 [PaulG]

...we will be updating the MAUR at some point to generally update this requirement

15:16:06 [PaulG]

Lionel_Wolberger: I would love to see crypto wallet accessibility requirements

15:16:22 [Fazio]

Maur (Media Accessibility User Requirements)

15:17:31 [PaulG]

Lionel_Wolberger: so, we'll revisit the considerations in the data model because it's being inherited from a prolific group

15:18:20 [PaulG]

Dr_Keith: just how far down the rabbit hole do we go with data construction? Is there something we can refer to for general guidance?

15:19:08 [PaulG]

janina: what are the key points we want developers to be mindful of as they develop and implement their technology so if they need help they'll know where to get it

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present+

15:19:38 [PaulG]

Dr_Keith: is there any general W3C document on how data should be structured for accessibility?

15:19:50 [PaulG]

janina: no, there's not a document like that?

15:20:13 [PaulG]

janina: that's an opportunity

15:20:54 [PaulG]

Dr_Keith: I'll put some thought into that

15:21:37 [Lionel_Wolberger]

PaulG: Are we talking about data guidelines? Or when a spec just specifies data, we dont put guidance, we are interested in the human computer interface

15:21:55 [Lionel_Wolberger]

... machine to machine is out of our scope. 'we don't really care'

15:22:34 [Lionel_Wolberger]

... for example, PNG was omitting description. Your eventual target is a human but even machines will benefit from the description

15:23:22 [Lionel_Wolberger]

... when there is a final human to consume it, there should be capacity to accomodate different modalities

15:23:34 [Lionel_Wolberger]

... we need to focus on the HCI

15:24:59 [Fazio]

even macjine to machine data gets reviewed by humans for QA. Think LLM

15:25:00 [Lionel_Wolberger]

Lionel_Wolberger: Sounds like we should look carefully for machine to machine data enrichments that can also benefit downstream human consumption

15:25:31 [Fazio]

sorry for my typos

15:25:53 [Lionel_Wolberger]

PaulG: I am emphasizing that this is a way to rally support from people who think they are just dealing in data without any need for human interaction

15:26:14 [Lionel_Wolberger]

... we can remind them that LLMs and other algorithms also benefit from these types of enrichments

15:26:45 [Lionel_Wolberger]

... so you cannot go wrong by adding a slot for description text. if it is left empty most of the time, then why do you care?

15:27:18 [janina]

Our *AUR notes are listed here:

15:27:20 [janina]

https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/task-forces/research-questions/wiki/Main_Page

15:27:28 [Lionel_Wolberger]

... and if eventually, in some scenario not anticipated by the original authors, it is indeed exposed to humans, then the field may come into use

15:28:07 [Fazio]

its even mor important in beginning

15:28:48 [Lionel_Wolberger]

s/mor important/more important

15:29:26 [PaulG]

janina: cross-referencing the aspects of wicg and maur that have some of this could be helpful

15:29:50 [Lionel_Wolberger]

Fazio: Even if you are creating machine to machine tech, it is created by humans

15:29:57 [Lionel_Wolberger]

... and those humans also include people with disabilities

15:30:05 [Lionel_Wolberger]

... there is always a human interaction component

15:30:12 [Lionel_Wolberger]

... take autonomous driving for example

15:30:22 [Lionel_Wolberger]

... it is humans who are involved when errors are escalated

15:30:40 [Lionel_Wolberger]

... we should keep these humans in mind, especially in early stage technologies

15:33:27 [PaulG]

janina: the resolution is to agree to inheriting pointers and we'll update the considerations section at some point

15:33:51 [Roy]

https://github.com/w3c/a11y-request/issues/70

15:33:52 [gb]

https://github.com/w3c/a11y-request/issues/70 -> Issue 70 Bitstring Status List v1.0 2024-01-21 > 2024-02-13 (by msporny) [LC] [REVIEW REQUESTED] [pending]

15:34:42 [PaulG]

zakim, take up next item

15:34:42 [Zakim]

agendum 5 -- new on TR http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html -- taken up [from janina]

15:34:51 [Roy]

subtopic: Accessible Rich Internet Applications (WAI-ARIA) 1.3

15:34:52 [Roy]

- tracker: https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Accessible_Rich_Internet_Applications_(WAI-ARIA)_1.3

15:34:52 [Roy]

- spec: https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.3/

15:36:01 [PaulG]

janina: the most important thing to look at is what this adds to 1.1 and 1.2

15:37:26 [PaulG]

https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.3/#substantive-changes-since-aria-1-2

15:38:06 [PaulG]

zakim, take up next item

15:38:06 [Zakim]

agendum 6 -- CSS Update (Paul) https://github.com/w3c/css-a11y/issues -- taken up [from janina]

15:38:06 [PaulG]

no updates

15:38:06 [PaulG]

zakim, close this item

15:38:06 [Zakim]

agendum 6 closed

15:38:06 [Zakim]

I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

15:38:06 [Zakim]

7. Actions Checkin (Specs) https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/open [from janina]

15:38:06 [PaulG]

zakim, take up item 7

15:38:06 [Zakim]

agendum 7 -- Actions Checkin (Specs) https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/open -- taken up [from janina]

15:38:24 [PaulG]

zakim, close this item

15:38:24 [Zakim]

agendum 7 closed

15:38:25 [Zakim]

I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

15:38:25 [Zakim]

8. Task Force & Deliverables Updates [from janina]

15:38:27 [PaulG]

zakim, take up item 8

15:38:28 [Zakim]

agendum 8 -- Task Force & Deliverables Updates -- taken up [from janina]

15:40:13 [PaulG]

IrfanAli: we're waiting for group review before wider review

15:42:12 [PaulG]

janina: in COGA there's a tendency for scope creep. For instance spellcheck is out of scope in collaborative tools

15:42:47 [PaulG]

...we're going to try to make it more clear where those boundaries are

15:43:15 [Fazio]

Please try out the Accessibility Maturity Model: https://w3c.github.io/maturity-model/ in your organization and provide feedback

15:43:29 [PaulG]

subtopic: maturity model

15:43:48 [Fazio]

Please try out the Accessibility Maturity Model: https://w3c.github.io/maturity-model/ in your organization and provide feedback

15:44:09 [PaulG]

Fazio: toward the end of the year we published an update. We've had some organizations try it out and provide some feedback.

15:44:41 [PaulG]

...we rely on this feedback to continue to develop the model. If you can take it and use it in your organizations and let us know how it goes.

15:44:56 [PaulG]

...it will help us continue this work

15:45:37 [PaulG]

janina: the goals is to move this to an APA note

15:47:29 [PaulG]

janina: Benetech has implemented the model but it has taken a lot of time. We may need to help organizations with less commitment get started.

15:47:56 [PaulG]

...and how to integrate with 3rd party tools and processes

15:48:31 [PaulG]

Fazio: Inte, Benetech, and Dr Keith have implemented the model and given feedback

15:48:41 [PaulG]

zakim, next item

15:48:41 [Zakim]

agendum 9 -- Other Business -- taken up [from janina]

15:49:06 [PaulG]

s/Inte Intel

15:49:24 [PaulG]

s/Inte/Intel

15:50:03 [PaulG]

zakim, next item

15:50:04 [Zakim]

agendum 10 -- be done -- taken up [from janina]

15:50:06 [PaulG]

zakim, end meeting

15:50:06 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been janina, Dr_Keith, Roy, Fazio, uxjennifer, PaulG, mike_beganyi, Lionel_Wolberger, nehaj, IrfanAli, Fredrik

15:50:08 [Zakim]

RRSAgent, please draft minutes

15:50:10 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/24-apa-minutes.html Zakim

15:50:17 [Zakim]

I am happy to have been of service, PaulG; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye

15:50:17 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #apa

15:59:36 [janina]

rrsagent, bye

15:59:36 [RRSAgent]

I see no action items