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11:58:35 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/01/17-wot-uc-irc
11:58:55 <kaz> meeting: WoT Use Cases
11:59:36 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Michael_McCool, Luca_Barbato, Jan_Romann, Luca_Barbato, Tomoaki_Mizushima
11:59:54 <McCool> McCool has joined #wot-uc
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12:00:12 <kaz> chair: Mizushima
12:00:29 <kaz> present+ Mahda_Noura
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12:01:51 <kaz> present+ Kunihiko_Toumura, Michael_Koster
12:01:57 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
12:02:02 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
12:02:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/17-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz
12:02:10 <Ege> Ege has joined #wot-uc
12:02:17 <mahda-noura> present+ Mahda_Noura
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12:02:56 <kaz> present+ Cristiano_Aguzzi, Ege_Korkan
12:02:57 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
12:02:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/17-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz
12:03:25 <kaz> scribenick: McCool
12:03:49 <McCool> topic: minutes
12:03:50 <kaz> agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/IG_UseCase_WebConf#January_17th.2C_2024
12:04:04 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/2023/10/26-wot-uc-minutes.html Oct-26
12:04:21 <McCool> mz: from Oct 26 last year - uc call has been suspended for a while
12:04:35 <McCool> ... we discussed discovery and security
12:04:47 <McCool> ... if there are issues please tell me...
12:04:57 <Ege> looks good to me
12:05:07 <McCool> ... ok, no comment, minutes are approved.
12:05:33 <McCool> topic: Process
12:06:03 <kaz> present+ Michael_Lagally
12:06:09 <McCool> mz: many issues and PRs in repository, but need also to discuss some organizational issues
12:07:11 <McCool> mz: Issue 257 raises the issues of functional vs. technical requirements
12:07:20 <mlagally_> mlagally_ has joined #wot-uc
12:07:33 <McCool> ... would like to first discuss goals and purpose of use case requirements
12:07:52 <McCool> ... so wrote this document
12:07:53 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/blob/main/Process.md
12:07:55 <Mizushima> https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/blob/main/Process.md
12:08:04 <kaz> s|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/blob/main/Process.md||
12:08:17 <kaz> s|https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/blob/main/Process.md|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/blob/main/Process.md proposed process|
12:08:46 <McCool> mz: draft; many task forces that have different deliverables
12:09:31 <McCool> ... want to define several phases: use cases, requirement extraction, gap analysis, feature definition, spec generation, testing, publication, backlog
12:09:42 <McCool> ... use cases should be the starting point
12:10:10 <McCool> for each phase, say which group is responsible for it
12:10:17 <kaz> s/for ea/... for ea/
12:10:24 <kaz> q+
12:10:39 <McCool> ... and so UC role is UC definition and requirement extraction
12:11:26 <McCool> ... gap analysis also checks if some other standard already exists that is appropriate
12:12:05 <kaz> q?
12:12:08 <Ege> q+
12:12:16 <McCool> q+
12:12:33 <McCool> kaz: think this is a good direction
12:12:51 <McCool> ... and consistent with TD task force has been doing
12:13:17 <McCool> ... we should ask participants for input, more precise definition of each phase
12:13:25 <cris_> q+
12:13:29 <kaz> ack k
12:13:33 <McCool> ... then next time we can think of more concrete template and process
12:13:57 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/blob/main/relationship.md
12:14:02 <kaz> ack e
12:14:09 <McCool> ege: some overlap with relationship document, e.g. testing
12:14:15 <McCool> ... should make sure these are aligned
12:14:43 <McCool> ... should also add if no gap detected, don't proceed to step 4
12:15:20 <McCool> ... next, do we collect any use case?   Do we collect use cases for things we know work, or ones that we know there is a gap?
12:15:56 <kaz> s|https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/blob/main/relationship.md|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-charter-drafts/blob/main/relationship.md relationship document as part of the Charter discussion|
12:15:58 <McCool> mz: is a draft, want to revise
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12:16:09 <mlagally_> q+
12:16:42 <McCool> ege: what do others think about 3?
12:16:42 <kaz> qq+
12:17:35 <McCool> kaz: in morning mz asked for help - regarding gap analysis, need to brush up definition
12:17:52 <kaz> ack k
12:17:52 <Zakim> kaz, you wanted to react to Ege
12:18:00 <McCool> ... need to consider how to generate potential use cases to address gap
12:20:18 <McCool> mm: do feel strongly we need to justify our current feature set and capture requirements from our current set
12:20:34 <McCool> mz: IG is working on new charter document
12:20:47 <kaz> ack mc
12:20:50 <kaz> q+
12:20:51 <McCool> ... we need to figure out role of UC tf for that charter
12:21:23 <kaz> qq+
12:21:44 <McCool> ... are many stakeholders - many are not WoT-specific
12:21:52 <kaz> s/IG is working on new charter document/WoT WG is working on deliverables for new Charter period/
12:22:21 <McCool> ... we need to think about what we want to gather for use cases
12:23:15 <McCool> kaz: comments on mz point - WoT WG is working on new deliverables, and further deployment; WG and IG collaboratively should be considering new use cases as well as existing ones
12:23:18 <McCool> q?
12:23:20 <McCool> q+
12:23:25 <McCool> ack k
12:23:29 <kaz> ack k
12:23:29 <Zakim> kaz, you wanted to react to McCool
12:23:36 <kaz> q+
12:23:48 <kaz> ack cr
12:24:13 <McCool> cris: reusing what we have so far, but noticed we have a lot of feature requests written as use cases
12:24:27 <Ege> +1 to cristiano
12:24:29 <McCool> ... should review and categorize these issues before we go looking for new use cases
12:24:35 <McCool> ... we have a lot still to look at
12:25:00 <McCool> mz: that is important also
12:25:07 <kaz> q?
12:25:39 <McCool> ml: think this is useful, and help to structure the process and make it more formal
12:25:55 <Ege> q+
12:25:59 <Ege> ack ml
12:26:02 <McCool> ... at a high level do not see any significant misalignment with Ege's and this document
12:26:14 <McCool> ... uc has a number of purposes
12:26:20 <McCool> ... one is to identify gaps
12:26:25 <McCool> ... but has other purposes
12:26:41 <McCool> ... for one, it can show to potential adopters some potential applications
12:26:58 <McCool> ... it can also show interest by stakeholders in using WoT
12:27:20 <McCool> ... so I think the current document needs to be refined to show what can and can't be accomplished with current specs
12:27:43 <McCool> ... for example, for multimedia and digital twins there is still some work to do
12:28:31 <McCool> ml: state of requirement analysis - there are already many use cases that cannot be satisfied
12:29:34 <Ege> q?
12:29:36 <Ege> ack mc
12:30:08 <McCool> mm: agree with ml's points: we already have many use cases which we cannot address; template for requirements can indicate whether satisfied by current specs.
12:30:17 <McCool> q?
12:30:20 <mlagally_> q+
12:31:02 <McCool> kaz: today's discussion is brainstorming, we should refine phase definitions
12:31:09 <McCool> q+
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12:31:14 <kaz> ack k
12:31:16 <McCool> ack k
12:31:51 <McCool> ege: to comment on outreach functionality, arch document also does this
12:31:59 <McCool> ... e.g. chapter 4 and 5 in architecture
12:32:15 <McCool> ... if we also use UC doc for that, it is redundant
12:32:33 <McCool> ... talking to people outside, they use the arch doc for that purpose
12:33:00 <kaz> s/we should refine phase definitions/we should refine phase definitions. based on today's discussion, we should think about concrete template to describe use cases, requirements and gap analysis, then also how to transfer the results to each spec TF./
12:33:09 <McCool> ... one thing we can do - if we find no gap, perhaps we can put it into the arch document as a "where things work" example
12:33:10 <kaz> q+
12:33:26 <Ege> ack ml
12:33:26 <McCool> ... but should be group opinion
12:33:40 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-usecases/issues/259 is the issue I have mentioned
12:33:55 <McCool> ml: thanks for bringing up arch; I think UC doc has different information, showing interest of stakeholders
12:34:28 <McCool> ... that information is not in architecture
12:34:40 <Ege> q+ in that case we should remove those sections from architecture
12:34:50 <Ege> q+ to in that case we should remove those sections from architecture
12:35:12 <McCool> ... regarding the templates, was motivated by multimedia group, it can at least be a starting point; same for requirements
12:35:38 <McCool> ... e.g. start with existing basis, going back to greenfield only if there is a good reason
12:35:55 <McCool> mz: we should be discussing gap analysis with each task force
12:36:03 <McCool> ack e
12:36:03 <Zakim> Ege, you wanted to in that case we should remove those sections from architecture
12:36:17 <McCool> mz: after this discussion we should merge that idea
12:37:25 <kaz> ack mc
12:37:33 <McCool> mm: should be clear what we want out of the process: we need clear connections between features and use cases, via requirements, for reviewers to see
12:37:53 <McCool> kaz: consider possible feedback from each phase back to specifications
12:38:04 <McCool> ... need to involve TF editors
12:38:14 <McCool> q+
12:38:17 <kaz> ack k
12:38:25 <mlagally_> +1 to Kaz
12:38:41 <Ege> q+ to architecture and use case overlap
12:40:01 <McCool> mm: I think TFs are the experts, and can propose requirements, as the uc proposers often cannot
12:40:19 <McCool> ... a good example is security, where uc proposers often did not provide enough detail
12:40:27 <mlagally_> ++q
12:40:31 <mlagally_> +q
12:40:33 <kaz> q?
12:40:36 <McCool> ... however, *prioritizing* requirements is something the entire WG should decide
12:40:46 <kaz> qq+ mlagally
12:40:52 <kaz> ack ml
12:40:55 <kaz> ack ml
12:40:55 <Zakim> mlagally, you wanted to react to kaz
12:41:06 <McCool> ml: need to distinguish between business and technical requirements
12:41:06 <kaz> s/to kaz/to McCool/
12:41:21 <kaz> q+
12:41:35 <McCool> ... do need to involve uc as much as possible to understand what capabilities they need
12:41:54 <kaz> q-
12:41:56 <kaz> qq+
12:42:00 <kaz> ack mc
12:42:33 <kaz> ack k
12:42:33 <Zakim> kaz, you wanted to react to mlagally
12:42:37 <McCool> mm: think we need a level of detail between business and technical requirements (e.g. functional)
12:42:42 <kaz> s/to mlagally/to McCool/
12:42:58 <McCool> ege: return to an earlier point, arch vs uc
12:43:26 <McCool> ... if we value people aspect, I think we could still remove uc from architecture
12:43:41 <JKRhb> +1
12:43:45 <kaz> i/ege:/kaz: so need to think about how deal with wide review points, e.g., security and privacy, within the use case description and requirement description./
12:43:47 <McCool> ... also, since we are talking about two goals, perhaps should separate them
12:43:50 <kaz> ack e
12:43:50 <Zakim> Ege, you wanted to architecture and use case overlap
12:43:51 <cris_> +1
12:44:00 <McCool> ... we have been talking about user stories in TD
12:44:12 <kaz> q?
12:44:14 <McCool> ... these are much easier to turn into requirements, more specific
12:44:14 <kaz> q+
12:44:29 <McCool> ... the current use cases are quite broad and often non-technical
12:44:58 <McCool> kaz: need to include user's viewpoints and needs in uc description
12:45:08 <McCool> ... but should think about arch and uc doc separately
12:45:09 <McCool> q+
12:45:12 <McCool> ack k
12:45:13 <kaz> ack k
12:45:40 <kaz> q+
12:46:31 <kaz> ack mc
12:46:41 <Ege> qq+
12:46:42 <McCool> mm: do think a few examples in arch are useful, but right now is quite long
12:47:02 <McCool> ... do think we don't need a complete analysis of all deployments there
12:47:17 <kaz> ack e
12:47:17 <Zakim> Ege, you wanted to react to McCool
12:47:31 <McCool> ege: in that case we may want another section in uc case document that is a distillation of patterns
12:47:49 <McCool> ... that would correspond to current sections 4 and 5 in architecture
12:47:51 <mlagally_> +1
12:47:56 <McCool> kaz: agree with mm and ege
12:48:03 <Mizushima> q+
12:48:12 <McCool> ... for concrete uc proposals, can accept various ones
12:48:53 <McCool> ... but should think about what is the "typical" use case, categorize some of the duplicate ucs, prioritize
12:49:00 <McCool> ... generate "atomic" descriptions
12:49:01 <kaz> ack k
12:49:50 <McCool> mz: is use case section in architecture document, but those are different from those in UC & R
12:49:51 <McCool> q+
12:49:56 <kaz> q+
12:50:38 <kaz> ack miz
12:51:28 <kaz> ack mc
12:51:30 <McCool> mm: so the UC&R document is also supposed to have *requirements*.  Right now this requirements analysis is also done in Arch redundantly
12:52:03 <McCool> ... I think the UC&R doc should collect use cases, analyse them, extract requirements, and arch should just state arch that satisfies them
12:52:31 <McCool> kaz: think we can port the appropriate sections from arch to UC&R document
12:52:38 <McCool> q?
12:52:41 <McCool> ack k
12:52:43 <Ege> q+
12:53:22 <mlagally_> q+
12:53:24 <McCool> ege: would prefer to see that material from arch 4&5 moved to UC&R
12:53:36 <kaz> q+
12:53:38 <kaz> ack e
12:53:38 <McCool> ... I think this is mostly a historical thing
12:53:52 <McCool> ... at the very least, there has to be a clear connection
12:53:56 <McCool> ml:
12:54:20 <McCool> ml: section 4 is application domains, e.g. verticals
12:54:44 <McCool> ... having verticals in architecture makes sense, but agree in principle that details belong in UC&R
12:54:53 <kaz> i|section 4|-> https://www.w3.org/TR/wot-architecture11/#sec-application-domains Section "4. Application Domains" from WoT Architecture 1.1|
12:55:30 <kaz> q?
12:55:32 <kaz> ack ml
12:55:34 <McCool> ... would not be too religious but we should look into having alignment and consistency
12:55:46 <McCool> ... application domains are not use cases
12:55:49 <Ege> q+
12:56:16 <McCool> ... these do help the reader understand the goals and applicability of WoT
12:56:38 <McCool> kaz: this is a good starting point for both UC&R and Arch, but regarding Arch itself
12:56:44 <sebastian> q+
12:56:45 <McCool> q+
12:57:02 <McCool> kaz: during UC&R call should discuss this document
12:57:04 <McCool> ack k
12:57:46 <mlagally_> Unfortunately we ae out oftime. I have to move on to a different call
12:57:59 <kaz> s/regarding Arch itself/regarding Arch itself, we should discuss that during the Architecture call./
12:58:04 <McCool> ege: however, even chapters are structured very similarly, and think that the material in arch would in fact move over very easily; I do think the audience is the same
12:58:29 <McCool> ... think the audiences for these documents are the same
12:58:40 <kaz> s/this document/what to be imported from the Architecture spec to the UC&R document./
12:59:00 <McCool> seb: want to support kaz that we should discuss Arch
12:59:03 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
12:59:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/17-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz
12:59:11 <McCool> ... should organize a meeting for Arch
12:59:16 <kaz> present+ Sebastian_Kaebisch
12:59:18 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
12:59:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/17-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz
12:59:38 <Ege> q+
12:59:39 <kaz> q+
12:59:45 <kaz> ack seb
12:59:48 <kaz> ack mc
12:59:50 <McCool> mm: need actually to discuss at the WG level
13:00:05 <McCool> ... but we can make the proposal
13:00:13 <McCool> ege: agree, but still the same people
13:00:24 <kaz> ack ege
13:00:37 <sebastian> q+
13:01:05 <McCool> mm: true, but procedurally we need a resolution in the WG call; suggest making an issue in the wot repo
13:01:30 <kaz> ack k
13:01:31 <kaz> ack s
13:01:43 <McCool> kaz: time check
13:02:02 <kaz> i/kaz: time/sk: time/
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13:02:32 <kaz> s/sk: time/kaz: or an Issue on wot-architecture/
13:02:41 <kaz> s/kaz: time/sk: time/
13:02:42 <McCool> McCool has left #wot-uc
13:02:43 <kaz> [adjourned]
13:02:49 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:02:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/17-wot-uc-minutes.html kaz
13:29:23 <Ege> q+
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