14:29:42 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #epub-fxl
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14:29:46 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:29:47 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), wendyreid
14:29:54 <wendyreid> meeting: FXL EPUB Accessibility Taskforce
14:30:00 <wendyreid> date: 2024-01-15
14:30:02 <wendyreid> chair: wendyreid
14:57:04 <Rachel_Osolen> Rachel_Osolen has joined #epub-fxl
14:59:13 <gautierchomel> gautierchomel has joined #epub-fxl
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15:01:49 <wendyreid> present+
15:02:54 <gautierchomel> present+
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15:03:10 <SueNeu> present+
15:04:01 <Rachel_Osolen> present+
15:04:01 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/2604
15:04:09 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/2605
15:04:26 <Rachel_Osolen> Scribe: Rachel_Osolen
15:04:47 <wendyreid> https://rawcdn.githack.com/w3c/epub-specs/69c6641fef434c31aa4982ec9b8fbdaf4c0e3bbd/epub33/fxl-a11y/index.html#rs-a11y
15:05:11 <Rachel_Osolen> Wendy: Start with reading systems. Link above is preview in more comfortable reading mode
15:06:20 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino has joined #epub-fxl
15:06:21 <Rachel_Osolen> Wendy: cleaned up grammar documents, and made some section decisions. Biggest one is not to mention reflow because it is still experimental and this doc is meant for publishers now
15:06:35 <gpellegrino> present+
15:07:09 <wendyreid> q?
15:07:10 <gautierchomel> q+
15:07:12 <Rachel_Osolen> Wendy: wants to talk about fall backs, but wants a better way to word it. They need to be handled iwth attention. Looking for input
15:07:15 <wendyreid> ack gautierchomel
15:07:58 <Rachel_Osolen> Gautier: is fine with what Wendy has done. Agrees for more feedback on multiple renditions. Not important to have there now ...
15:08:24 <Rachel_Osolen> we have started describing it, and can build on later. Would really love more feedback on this section ...
15:08:36 <wendyreid> q+
15:08:44 <Rachel_Osolen> maybe push question into community group so more people can discuss...
15:09:56 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
15:10:08 <Rachel_Osolen> one point to include. Do not present three levels of WCGAG...
15:11:31 <Rachel_Osolen> Wendy: Agree to send back to community. Had discussion on metadata side of reading system. Included with content. Retailer does not provide. Is there room for some discussion on what reading systems augment metadata with ...
15:11:41 <gpellegrino> q+
15:12:04 <gautierchomel> q+
15:12:08 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
15:12:13 <Rachel_Osolen> it is all good it the book supports a11y, but how does the reading system provide this info, and how can there be a warning/notification what features are supported or well supported
15:12:44 <gpellegrino> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/issues/191
15:12:47 <Rachel_Osolen> Gregorio: US guidelines talks about metadata. Link above ...
15:13:17 <wendyreid> s/US/UX/
15:13:32 <Rachel_Osolen> we can add this. Task force is working on how to displaying info about book through ONIX ....
15:13:52 <Rachel_Osolen> And also working on what is feasible with reading system....
15:14:10 <Rachel_Osolen> example font size can be changed in book but not with reading system ...
15:14:43 <Rachel_Osolen> working on reading system can actually tell you what the reading system can or can not do ....
15:15:07 <wendyreid> ack gautierchomel
15:15:11 <Rachel_Osolen> UX with specific app you can add discription on what is actually available to the reading through the reading system
15:16:41 <Rachel_Osolen> Gautier: Metadata will be controlled through distrbutors through contracts by some, and others will be through only through publishers ...
15:17:20 <Rachel_Osolen> maybe the missing paragraph, can push it into community so we can get feedback on this warning about metadata
15:18:22 <Rachel_Osolen> Wendy: with warning. Is okay with Reading Order, but TTS is not actually supported on web let alone on reading system. Does not want to necessarily tie a metadata warning to something not supported
15:18:27 <gpellegrino> q+
15:18:32 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
15:18:34 <Rachel_Osolen> Wendy: be carefule with what to include
15:19:10 <Rachel_Osolen> Gregorio: in UX have guide enable no visual reading (includes things such as reading order) maybe refer to that without refering to WCGAG
15:19:21 <Rachel_Osolen> Wendy: agrees
15:20:19 <Rachel_Osolen> Wendy: any other comments? Will change this today ....
15:20:36 <gautierchomel> q+
15:20:45 <Rachel_Osolen> other thing is fallbacks, not sure how to do this, maybe link to other doc and mention to be mindful of how to use
15:20:46 <wendyreid> ack gautierchomel
15:21:07 <Rachel_Osolen> Gautier: the point of fallback is mainly to say dont use unless you really know what you are doing ...
15:22:25 <Rachel_Osolen> has seen EPUB with fallbacks is does not always work with reading system, and do not use fallback unless it is formatted properly for the support.
15:22:58 <JonasLillqvist> +q
15:23:03 <wendyreid> ack JonasLillqvist
15:23:04 <Rachel_Osolen> Wendy: that is how we have worded this for the spine
15:24:21 <Rachel_Osolen> Jonas: Under Enable Fixed Layout display. Phrase about images in preview on paragraph 5.3.5. To him it sounds like there are multiple images used
15:24:53 <SueNeu> q+
15:24:55 <Rachel_Osolen> Jonas: maybe change phrase to "contains" to be more clear. Some FXL EPUBS are really only composed of images.
15:24:59 <wendyreid> ack SueNeu
15:25:45 <Rachel_Osolen> Susan: has seen FXL composed of multiple images and texts. link rather than image link to view port of whole page and that the whole page needs to be visible rather than just image.
15:26:03 <gpellegrino> q+
15:26:08 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
15:26:18 <Rachel_Osolen> Wendy: was this about being about to isolate images?
15:26:47 <Rachel_Osolen> Gregorio: Yes, when you double tap on image you can zoom in it. The idea behind is similar
15:27:16 <Rachel_Osolen> Gautier: Yes it is. Many situations it will allow to zoom on portions of image.
15:27:17 <SueNeu> q+
15:27:21 <wendyreid> ack SueNeu
15:28:04 <Rachel_Osolen> Susan: It is not about seeing whole page, but seeing each image. Maybe FXL pages generally "include" one or two images, and can see full page on full screen
15:28:12 <Rachel_Osolen> Wendy: will make this change
15:28:55 <Rachel_Osolen> Gautier: Is this a good way to use the reflowable part as an issue?
15:29:16 <Rachel_Osolen> Wendy: best way to comment on PR if related to PR itself.
15:29:42 <Rachel_Osolen> Gautier: will ask for more comments on this point.
15:29:57 <wendyreid> https://rawcdn.githack.com/w3c/epub-specs/f3c33af54a8577b8ed3789dadc1fb9ec72907129/epub33/fxl-a11y/index.html#media-overlays
15:30:17 <Rachel_Osolen> Wendy: Move to Media Overlay section. See link of preview above. Thank you Gautier for generating
15:31:37 <JonasLillqvist> q+
15:31:42 <wendyreid> ack JonasLillqvist
15:31:44 <Rachel_Osolen> Wendy: did not change very much at all. Wants to go back and clean up some up some of the references. Only other change so far maybe making sections about video, audio only etc more clear
15:32:54 <gautierchomel> q+
15:32:59 <Rachel_Osolen> Jonas: Speaks more about Reading System more than publication. When it says users must be able automatically skippable content, and all skippable structures be identified, and all users can escape. For him the skipping and escaping is part of the reading system, the markup for these is part of the publication
15:33:21 <Rachel_Osolen> Jonas: should this be in this section for reading system?
15:33:24 <wendyreid> ack gautierchomel
15:34:27 <Rachel_Osolen> Gautier: found nothing about skippablility. Regular question, can you add skip tags to skippability? We cant skip anything else what is skip tagged (like secondary content) ....
15:35:02 <Rachel_Osolen> the only skippable elements are asides and it is easy for the publishers to add this that only one part is skipped
15:35:36 <gpellegrino> q+
15:35:43 <Rachel_Osolen> Gautier: have found not clear document citing this on the web ....
15:36:34 <Rachel_Osolen> if any one has a clear doucment on skippable content, please share ....
15:37:13 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
15:37:14 <gpellegrino> https://www.w3.org/TR/epub-33/#sec-behaviors-skip-escape
15:37:29 <Rachel_Osolen> Skipped only works when the FXL has media layout
15:38:31 <Rachel_Osolen> Gregorio: see spec above, this is takes about specs for skippable and escape for multiple mark up. This is what our section is referring to, what to skip in media overlay, not inn TTS
15:38:33 <wendyreid> s/layout/overlays/
15:39:34 <Rachel_Osolen> Wendy: only type tied into epubtype and not epub ARIA ....
15:39:45 <SueNeu> q+
15:39:56 <JonasLillqvist> +q
15:39:59 <wendyreid> ack SueNeu
15:40:13 <Rachel_Osolen> How many EPUBS are effectively using skippabilyt and escapability? Most media overlay seen are childrens books, would like to see more
15:40:47 <gpellegrino> q+
15:40:53 <wendyreid> ack JonasLillqvist
15:41:03 <Rachel_Osolen> Susan: Researched this. If this is something we want to address if it is not used as much? Do we need this right now?
15:41:40 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
15:41:42 <Rachel_Osolen> Jonas: only ones using are the special libraries currently
15:42:53 <Rachel_Osolen> Gregorio: from historical view this all comes from digital talking book from DAISY. Audio only and video only are digital talking books that are tranformed in EPUB. Mostly in libraries. Makes no sense in FXL world...
15:43:55 <Rachel_Osolen> If in FXL there is a table, and when using media overlays, the user should be able to exit the table and move to next content. It is very important for all cases for non Fiction in media overlays ...
15:44:22 <Rachel_Osolen> fiction is more edge case. Non fiction is important on the reader side.
15:45:03 <Rachel_Osolen> Wendy: this is mentioned in TTS but maybe no one had defined TTS behavior, but no clear what it can and can not do. No clear definitions...
15:45:37 <gautierchomel> q+
15:45:40 <SueNeu> q+
15:45:41 <wendyreid> ack gautierchomel
15:45:44 <Rachel_Osolen> got a question today about a line break tag on FXL and if it will impact readability, probably not, but unknown as there is no info (for example)
15:46:26 <Rachel_Osolen> Gautier: the readers of what we can skip. with screenreader is adding symantics, we do not do this ...
15:47:03 <wendyreid> ack SueNeu
15:47:06 <Rachel_Osolen> we have readers who do want more semantical access to more semantics. we need a better definition on what is skippable and what can and cant be done
15:47:48 <Rachel_Osolen> Susan: in her experience readers ignore line break and need a visual for TTS.
15:48:11 <gpellegrino> q+
15:48:16 <gpellegrino> q-
15:48:20 <SueNeu> q+
15:48:26 <wendyreid> ack SueNeu
15:48:36 <JonasLillqvist> +q
15:49:25 <SueNeu> q+
15:49:30 <Rachel_Osolen> Wendy: looking info for how screenreaders determine different levels of verbosity
15:49:47 <wendyreid> ack Jonas
15:49:55 <Rachel_Osolen> Gautier: good question to ask wider group. Why is this not speficied?
15:51:08 <Rachel_Osolen> Jonas: back to document about sych playback. Skimming and desired information. This section is a bit off topic, main point is escaping here. Does not know what skimming and locating elements have to do with synced audio
15:52:07 <Rachel_Osolen> Jonas: last paragraph in section. Has hard time understanding this part without goign to source. It is about the issue of having audio for the navigation document, maybe make this more concise.
15:52:09 <wendyreid> ack SueNeu
15:52:51 <Rachel_Osolen> Susan: has colleague who makes children's books in media overlay, wants to share this with him but can't come to meetings.
15:53:05 <Rachel_Osolen> Wendy: yes, documentation is public and can make comments.
15:53:46 <gpellegrino> q+
15:53:49 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
15:54:02 <Rachel_Osolen> Wendy: will make editorial fixes, clarify skip and escapablility. Maybe things that client needs to do, but the reading system has to make it clear there is a set of behaviours to be accounted for.
15:54:53 <Rachel_Osolen> Wendy: will make changes this week and will have a draft that people can review and make comments and then start working on techniques side
15:55:32 <Rachel_Osolen> Gautier: will be gone next few meetings, but will be keeping up on minutes
15:55:53 <Rachel_Osolen> Wendy: January 29 no meeting, will meet next week, and again in February
15:56:50 <wendyreid> zakim, end meeting
15:56:50 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been wendyreid, gautierchomel, SueNeu, Rachel_Osolen, gpellegrino
15:56:52 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:56:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/15-epub-fxl-minutes.html Zakim
15:57:00 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, wendyreid; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
15:57:00 <Zakim> Zakim has left #epub-fxl
15:57:26 <wendyreid> present+ JonasLillqvist
15:57:34 <wendyreid> rrsagent, please draft minutes
15:57:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/15-epub-fxl-minutes.html wendyreid
15:58:14 <wendyreid> rrsagent, bye
15:58:14 <RRSAgent> I see no action items