14:01:57 RRSAgent has joined #wot-td 14:02:01 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/01/11-wot-td-irc 14:02:10 meeting: WoT-WG - TD-TF - Slot 2 14:02:25 ktoumura has joined #wot-td 14:03:00 JKRhb has joined #wot-td 14:03:07 luca_barbato has joined #wot-td 14:03:13 Mizushima has joined #wot-td 14:03:41 present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Ege_Korkan, Jan_Romann, Kunihiok_Toumura, Luca_Barbato 14:03:58 scribenick: JKRhb 14:04:14 agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#January_11.2C_2024 14:04:49 topic: Agenda 14:05:10 ek: Does anyone want to discuss something specific that should be added to the agenda? 14:05:12 present+ Mada_Noura, Tomoaki_Mizushima 14:05:32 i|Does|-> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#January_11.2C_2024 Agenda for today| 14:06:24 mahda-noura has joined #wot-td 14:06:58 No additional points are added 14:07:06 ek: Quite good attendance today 14:07:12 topic: Minutes Review 14:07:20 ek: Had a look before the call, minutes look good to me 14:07:31 ... also documented decisions in the wiki and in PRs 14:07:42 ... does someone have anything they want to be fixed? 14:07:55 i|Had a|-> https://www.w3.org/2024/01/10-wot-td-minutes.html Jan-10| 14:08:00 q+ 14:08:05 ek: Oh, just noticed: McCool should be changed to Michael Koster 14:08:46 kaz: General policy for the review was actually that the minutes should be sent to the group and then review should happen next week 14:09:14 ek: Then we will review the minutes next week 14:09:23 ack k 14:09:30 present+ Michael_Koster 14:09:36 topic: Cancellations 14:09:57 rrsagent, make log public 14:10:01 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:10:02 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 14:10:16 cris_ has joined #wot-td 14:10:24 ek: There was a discussion regarding the cancellation on February 14 and 15 due to holidays in Germany, but they are not general holidays but only for parents with kids 14:11:15 ... there is also Martin-Luther-King day, Michael Koster does that affect you? 14:11:16 chair: Ege, Koster 14:11:22 mjk: No, don't worry about it 14:11:31 present+ Cristiano_Aguzzi 14:11:33 topic: Binding Templates 14:11:44 subtopic: Merged Editorial PRs 14:12:01 ek: There have not been any PRs merged 14:12:21 q+ 14:12:25 subtopic: Data Mapping 14:12:28 q+ 14:12:33 ack k 14:12:47 ek: This has been discussed before, Luca did a presentation on the topic as well 14:13:00 lb: I think we discussed it in the context of the BACnet binding 14:13:39 ek: Important topic we should tackle, also relevant for Modbus, Profinet, LwM2M and Philips Hue 14:13:50 mjk has joined #wot-td 14:13:51 +1 14:14:22 ... not planning to do technical discussions today, but there are a number of protocols affected 14:14:33 ... to give you a quick example 14:14:34 q? 14:14:50 q+ 14:14:55 ack l 14:14:56 ... in TDs we always write the whole payload structure in the TD 14:15:06 ... sometimes this is too much, sometimes it is not enough 14:15:23 q? 14:15:40 ... therefore, we need a mapping concept from the data that is expected by the programmer to the data that goes through the wire 14:16:23 ... we can utilize our new use-case-based approach here 14:16:36 ... and then derive the relevant input from there 14:17:02 ... (adds text to the Wiki page) 14:17:09 kaz: In general I am okay with this proposal 14:17:15 ... but I would like to give two comments 14:17:30 q+ 14:17:39 q+ 14:17:57 ... first, if the mapping includes binary data we should think about some stardardizes middleware or binary data transfer, for example some kind of pack data 14:18:07 s/pack/packed/ 14:18:53 ... for example, as used in Python script, having a text representation for binary data 14:19:44 ack mjk 14:19:55 ... second, we should think about a use-case-based approach, also related to yesterday's discussion, use case derivation and requirements analysis should be inane 14:21:02 ... as Michael McCool said yesterday, we could think about functional and @@@ use cases separately, but they are difficult to separate at the moment, should be handled by the use cases task force 14:21:08 q? 14:21:13 ack k 14:22:18 ... the WoT WG should also clarify use cases from the users' perspective, to make it more clear which use cases are relevant for them. This should also be taken into account by the use case task force 14:23:03 lb: First part, should we send PRs to adjust the use cases document? 14:23:06 ek: Correct 14:23:15 s/use case derivation and requirements analysis should be inane/use case analysis and requirement extraction should be inline with this discussion 14:23:28 s/@@@/technical/ 14:24:20 q? 14:24:25 q+ 14:24:29 lb: Second, for binary payloads and protocols, we can simply rely on existing approaches like message pack (?) 14:24:57 s/they are difficult to separate at the moment, should be handled by the use cases task force/we're not sure which is functional use case and which is technical use case yet./ 14:25:01 xk l\ 14:25:01 ... and rely on content type and content coding for describing the data in the TD 14:25:03 ack l 14:26:09 ... we have that inbetween the serialization and the description of the output data 14:26:33 +1 14:26:40 s/yet./yet. So we as the TD TF should work with the Use Cases TF to clarify how to describe "Use Cases" in general./ 14:26:50 ek: You could start with a PR with a proposal and then people can add comments and discuss it 14:26:57 ... is that fine for you? 14:26:57 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:26:59 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 14:27:05 q? 14:27:05 lb: Sure 14:27:26 mjk: Feels like we are still at the use case stage 14:27:35 s/to comments/several comments/ 14:27:36 ... don't want to get into the technical discussion yet 14:28:14 ack mjk 14:28:14 ... needs the context of use cases, in the hopefully soon to come up use case call 14:28:20 s/the WoT WG should also/thirdly, the WoT WG should also/ 14:28:22 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:28:23 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 14:28:44 ek: Just a warm up discussion, need to have the use case definition and write up next 14:28:47 s/make it more clear/make it clearer/ 14:28:49 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:28:50 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 14:29:26 subtopic: Registry Analysis 14:29:26 ek: We have three ongoing analyses 14:29:27 q+ 14:29:32 s/relevant for/relevant to/ 14:29:34 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:29:35 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 14:30:01 ... Jan analyzed the custom registries, Cristiano is working on the IANA registries 14:30:07 s|xk l\|| 14:30:18 ... Cristiano's PR made progress 14:30:30 s/two comments/several comments/ 14:30:32 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:30:33 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 14:30:58 ca: @@@ 14:31:21 q? 14:31:23 ack c 14:31:27 ... we could consider to have people provide an IANA registration with their registration entry 14:31:35 ... regarding URI schemes 14:31:38 ... for example 14:31:50 s/for example// 14:32:03 s/... // 14:32:14 ek: Good point 14:32:36 ek: I had a look into the W3C registries myself 14:32:49 ... I leave the PR open for now, if people want to have a look into it 14:32:51 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:32:53 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 14:33:02 ... there is an official guideline document by W3C 14:33:21 i|@@@|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/1161 wot PR 1161 - docs: IANA procedures for registries summary| 14:33:33 ... besides that, I look into the WebCodecs and @@@ registries 14:33:38 q? 14:34:01 ... an important point is that registries can not be referenced in a normative way 14:34:15 ... as the content can change over time 14:34:15 i|I had a look into|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/1164 wot PR 1164 - W3C Registry Analysis| 14:34:55 ... for example, in the WebCodecs registry's case, people are not required to support any codec at all 14:35:00 i|I had a|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/d9267bb5522d285e0c847b0f65fdc28dd5571daa/registry-analysis/Readme.md rendered Readme.md| 14:35:03 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:35:05 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 14:35:22 s/@@@/AAC Symbol Registry/ 14:35:51 ... the registration process might be interesting for us 14:36:02 ... people have to submit via issues on GitHub 14:36:17 ... linked specifications must be public 14:36:33 ... entries cannot be deleted or deprecated 14:36:42 ... this is probably the most relevant for us 14:37:02 ek: Then there is the AAC Symbol Registry, which is also very interesting 14:37:37 ... this is for people with problems reading text, like a separate alphabet 14:38:06 ... the entries consist of a number, an english description and an SVG 14:38:22 ... the symbols are created by a separate entity 14:38:34 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:38:36 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 14:38:52 q+ 14:38:56 ... otherwise, the registration process is mostly standard 14:39:18 ... I will leave the PR open until next week, as I finished it before the call 14:39:44 kaz: We should clarify the process of how to update this analysis markdown document 14:40:18 ... we could create small PRs every week and then merge them, in order to not have PRs that are too large 14:40:35 ek: We can merge the PR now, if nobody has a problem with that 14:40:56 ack k 14:41:05 kaz: You can add "Draft" to the title to indicate that the analysis is still ongoing 14:41:12 ek: Will do 14:41:30 ... (adds "[DRAFT]" to the title of the document) 14:41:43 ... (merges the PR) 14:41:58 topic: TD PRs 14:42:05 subtopic: PR 1935 14:42:28 ek: Mahda has updated the files for the TM ontology here 14:43:31 s|analysis markdown document|wot/registry-analysis/Readme.md document| 14:43:31 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:43:32 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 14:43:38 ... (opens a rendered version of the ontology rendered as an HTML document) 14:43:38 ... we now have a readable version of it 14:43:38 i|Mahda|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1935 PR 1935 - Empty tm documents| 14:43:38 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:43:39 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 14:43:46 ... as in the other ontologies, we now can see all of the fields defined 14:44:05 ... (sees that "versionInfo" is not rendered) 14:44:42 mn: If there is no range defined, then a field is not rendered, for versionInfo, this is also the case in the TD ontology 14:44:57 ek: (shows the PR diff) 14:45:19 ... I added group to the source document here 14:45:39 ... the TM ontology is now generated by the same pipeline 14:46:01 q? 14:46:10 ... is fine to merge for everyone? 14:46:25 ca: Looks good to me 14:46:55 (Luca and Jan also agree to merge) 14:47:12 ek: (adds a comment and merges the PR) 14:47:50 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:47:51 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 14:48:10 I will jump to a more interesting discussion for now and maybe come back to some (more boring) PRs later 14:48:25 s/I will jump/ek: I will jump/ 14:48:36 topic: Reporting on WebAgents CG on Manageable Affordances 14:49:05 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webagents/2023Dec/0000.html 14:49:09 ek: I discussed with the people from this CG at TPAC and they invited me to be one of the chairs 14:49:31 ... there was the idea to form a taskforce on Manageable Affordances 14:49:47 q+ 14:49:56 ... there was a lot of interest in the topic 14:50:36 ... as it is a CG, the work cannot be normative, as is also stated in the taskforce description, is mostly about the analysis of this topic 14:51:07 kaz: If you are interested in this topic, that's okay, but I am a bit concerned about the road 14:51:52 ... as you have a lot of responsibilities, this might be a bit too much, from my viewpoint. Second point, the WoT WG should clarify its relationship with this CG 14:52:13 ... and should clarify the process of how ideas of transferred into the WoT WG 14:52:43 ... even if the same person is working as a chair in multiple groups or CGs, this needs to be clarified 14:53:19 ek: I agree, this is a bigger discussion how the procedures should be defined 14:53:53 kaz: From my viewpoint, they should clarify their process themselves, before inviting you as a chair 14:54:09 ack k 14:54:22 ek: Sure. If anyone is interested in joining the group's work, you are invited to do so 14:54:29 topic: More TD PRs 14:54:41 subtopic: PR 1949 14:54:52 i|there was the idea|-> https://github.com/w3c-cg/webagents/pull/19 webagents PR 19 - Manageable Affordances Task Force description| 14:54:57 ek: This more like a "boring" PR 14:55:15 ... the file deleted here is not used anywhere and also not part of the rendering pipeline 14:55:26 ... Mahda also had a look into it 14:55:49 ... if there is no objection, then I would proceed with merging it 14:55:51 Merged 14:55:53 i|This more like|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1949 PR 1949 - Delete td.js| 14:55:57 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:55:58 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 14:56:05 subtopic: PR 1950 14:56:38 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1950 PR 1950 - Adding publication folder to robots.txt 14:56:47 ek: This PR adds a robots.txt to prevent search engine crawlers from looking into draft documents 14:57:15 ... as before, people were finding draft documents via search engines and thought they were already published 14:58:30 No objections to merging, merged 14:58:30 subtopic: PR 1953 14:58:30 ek: This PR deletes the unused tag review document and adds documentation about the obsolete document to the README file 14:58:30 ... as discussed yesterday. This fine, right Kaz? 14:58:30 kaz: Yes 14:58:30 PR is merged 14:58:30 i|This PR|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1953 PR 1953 - Delete obsolete tag review and document it in readme| 14:58:56 topic: Next Meeting 14:59:05 ek: The other PRs will be discussed next week 14:59:30 ... we will also have a look into the data mapping topic and the registry analysis 15:00:04 q? 15:00:04 ... we also have this backlog in the wiki, where people can add points they want to discuss 15:00:04 ... anything else? 15:00:04 https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/1165 15:00:21 ca: I will finish the work on the IANA registry analysis until next week 15:00:45 lb: I already opened a PR as a placeholder, you can review it later 15:00:59 ek: That's it for today then, we can close the session 15:01:02 [adjourned] 15:02:20 s|https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/1165|| 15:02:43 i|I already|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/1165 wot PR 1165 - Initial expansion of the DataMapping work item| 15:05:04 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:05:05 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 15:47:44 Ege has joined #wot-td 15:48:13 Ege has joined #wot-td 17:29:22 Zakim has left #wot-td