15:00:47 RRSAgent has joined #epub-fxl 15:00:51 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/01/08-epub-fxl-irc 15:00:51 RRSAgent, make logs Public 15:01:22 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), wendyreid 15:01:22 SueNeu has joined #epub-fxl 15:01:22 meeting: EPUB FXL Task Force 15:01:22 date: 2023-01-08 15:01:22 chair: wendy 15:01:22 chair: wendyreid 15:01:22 gpellegrino has joined #epub-fxl 15:02:23 present+ 15:02:37 present+ 15:02:45 present+ 15:02:50 jgriggs_prh has joined #epub-fxl 15:02:56 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WaFpnpExdI3XLehMVRuoETrAr3oU8fqkpC5EfTm5z3Q/edit 15:02:58 present+ 15:03:06 present+ 15:03:24 scribe: SueNeu 15:03:36 Hadrien has joined #epub-fxl 15:03:56 Wendy: today we'll talk about the document Gautier put together for reading systems... 15:04:01 present+ 15:04:24 this should be useful for reading systems, but should also be useful for content creators to see... 15:04:32 what goes into rendering their book 15:05:02 Gautier: I've been working with my colleagues at EDRlab to make the draft... 15:05:15 We consider everything in this draft is doable... 15:05:48 it is important that any guidance we provide remains doable, so I invite anyone who is maintianing a reading system to let me know if... 15:05:54 anything presents problems. 15:07:07 Guatier: I am proposing 3 sections, one is what should be shown to reader... 15:07:33 second is what should be done by the reading system... 15:08:02 I want to provide more technical guidance that we should discuss what we can do in this document... 15:08:14 giving more data to the large reading systems... 15:08:42 some of what is here applies to all kinds of epubs... 15:09:02 the third part is some recommendations about contents rendered through tts... 15:09:24 We realized since we use tts in fxl... 15:09:43 we think it is very doable in fixed layout... 15:10:14 any attempt to display textural view of the layout may end up with a strange reading experience... 15:10:18 q+ 15:10:21 but I think we can do that.. 15:10:36 when we inform the reader... 15:10:41 ack Hadrien 15:11:15 Hadrien: I gave examples of companies doing something similar, including one with a panel view that extracts text... 15:11:50 some of these are more interactive epubs that us js to transform them into pseudo reflowable epubs... 15:12:19 If text is in a logical order, you may be able to produce a reflowable view... 15:12:51 you may have to recreate a good experience from complex html... 15:13:23 although a fixed layout is not displayable as reflowable, a reading system could display it as such if it is properly formatted... 15:13:52 This is more interesting than building a mixed publication that is fxl and reflowable... 15:13:53 q? 15:13:57 this is much more doable 15:14:31 Wendy: We do want to experiment with content that is switchable. It might be fun to build it... 15:14:50 Even if we are mocking it up in a browser... 15:15:09 If you use semantic html and not too fancy svg, it is doable... 15:15:26 We could prove to publishers it is possible and convince reading systems to do it... 15:16:08 Gautier- Did you mean CRM protection or accessiblility protection 15:16:26 Gautier: yes, maybe it is not in the right place in the document 15:16:53 Wendy: we generally avoid mentions of DRM and it is more a content creator concernf 15:17:10 Hadrien: yes but it is an inportant part of the EU specification 15:17:54 Wendy: I understand that as long as your format supports AT, and the book can be taken out of the ecosystem with out damaging it... 15:19:00 Wendy: We are looking at exiting Adobe ADE protection, it looks like Adobe is sunsetting ACS 15:19:58 Wendy: I think the features described are completely reasonable 15:20:50 Gautier: my main concept is about the interactivity between the reading system... 15:20:53 q+ 15:21:06 ack Hadrien 15:21:07 I don't want to have so much guidance on fxl that we ignore other files 15:21:37 Hadrien: Other than the ultimate textural render all of this applies... 15:22:20 there is a lack of guidlines about how you can send the data for screen readers... 15:22:31 q+ 15:22:49 Wendy: There's very little guidance about what reading systems should do with html components... 15:23:02 there is not much consistency with how AT interacts with them... 15:23:09 ack gpellegrino 15:23:18 we've all had to reinvent the wheel on running heads and page breaks, etc. 15:23:40 gPellegrino: maybe in the Daisy documentation there is documentation about this... 15:24:02 https://daisy.org/activities/standards/daisy/daisy-2/daisy-format-2-0-specification/ 15:24:22 Hadrien: I think page break markers isn't a good example, they are a bit all over the place... 15:24:54 Wendy: we could write something, I don't want to get too prescriptive and tell implementers how to implement... 15:25:03 q+ 15:25:08 ack Hadrien 15:25:11 It might be strange to have page number specs in the fxl document... 15:25:35 Hadrien: I see this as an issue, for example, non linear resources... 15:25:58 they are not displayed consistently. The risk is when we don't define anything... 15:26:10 the implementation is all over the place... 15:26:38 setting some expections would make for a better reading experience though we don't want to be too prescriptive 15:26:45 q+ 15:26:51 Wendy: maybe the best way to do it through the tts experience... 15:27:05 Hadrien: there's alot that goes into presenting tts... 15:27:25 including changing languages, pauses... 15:27:31 ack gautierchomel 15:27:58 Gautierchomel: maybe we can start with the tts and come back to the other groups and get their point of view... 15:28:22 maybe it isn't our job to provide this guidance... 15:29:03 we should get more input from different groups about implementing tts... 15:29:19 I couldn't find much about this, even for browsers... 15:29:56 Wendy: Adding a description of what should be in the tts... 15:30:11 it shouldn't be just in the fxl document... 15:30:34 q+ 15:30:43 maybe there should be a text to speech test case... 15:31:17 gpellegrino: there was a document made my [marisa] on synchronized media... 15:31:30 there were some interesting thing that pertain to this work on tts. 15:31:32 ack Hadrien 15:32:01 Hadrien: I think this is different, with synchronized media someone has broken things down for you... 15:32:16 with tts you need to do this, you need to get into the DOM... 15:32:47 most browsers have built-in ICU capability to break down to the sentance or word level 15:33:05 q+ 15:33:11 Hadrien: the kind of textural view we're talking about is similar to reader mode in browsers... 15:33:35 q+ 15:33:37 alot of what you need to build proper reader mode would work for building tts... 15:33:52 ack gautierchomel 15:34:15 gautierchomel: I have not found browser reading mode implementation... 15:35:33 we often are asked to escape semantic html limits for asides... 15:35:33 asides should be escaped but nothing else... 15:35:42 what readers are looking for is different levels of assited technology in reading systems... 15:36:05 ack gpellegrino 15:36:06 maybe we should offer some guidance 15:36:58 gpelligrino: the company [Okette] for saving pages for offline shared their code as open source... 15:37:06 this could be a starting off point... 15:38:14 Wendy: Text to speech is on the cusp of assistive technology, some people consider it assistive text and some don't... 15:38:33 there's little guidance for cases like asides, footnotes, captions... 15:38:47 I wonder if mapping to what screen readers do would be a good place to start... 15:38:53 q+ 15:39:02 we may be getting ahead of ourselves for now... 15:39:19 ack Hadrien 15:39:19 and we could give recommendations and not be too descriptive... 15:39:44 Hadrien: the EU is forcing our hand in this matter... 15:40:21 In PDF they have used two arguments about making them accessible... 15:40:37 zoom capability and making reflowable... 15:40:50 we could use these arguments too, and we have the advantage... 15:41:19 Epub is based on html. With semantic html and some guidance we can do better with what we have... 15:41:54 Wendy: this is a rabbit hole we probably have to go down... 15:42:05 I'm concerned with the scope of this document... 15:42:19 similar to the recommendations around aria roles... 15:42:44 for now, let me get this copy edited and into the document... 15:43:03 I can tie this to specific WCAG criteria as well... 15:43:10 structurally it is good 15:43:28 scribe+ 15:46:15 Wendy: the only missing section is the synchronized media section... 15:46:19 q+ 15:46:23 ack Hadrien 15:46:33 SueNeu will work with pgellegrino to make a pull request 15:47:24 Hadrien: If the metadata isn't correct, even a properly formatted document could cause problems... 15:47:49 we found in schools that when people were disappointed with tts, they didn't see it as a document issue... 15:48:04 whatever you do, you compromise something... 15:48:29 we should have the conversation about whether some features should be informed with the metadata... 15:48:56 Wendy: yes, we want good experiences, but in the next couple of years, we may have lots of content that may be accessible... 15:49:04 but doesn't have the metadata... 15:49:19 so I wouldn't want to punish content that doesn't have the metadata... 15:49:38 ingestion platforms have a role, since we parce the content... 15:49:43 q+ 15:49:51 ack Hadrien 15:50:02 "this book could have accessiblity metadata" 15:50:32 Hadrien: the EU guidelines say you should present the metadata without changes... 15:51:06 if you read the roles in the ebook chain, we may not be able to make optimal reading experiences... 15:51:27 does the publisher point to the intake platform?... 15:51:47 This risks people not doing anything... 15:52:21 Wendy: maybe its too easy to blame the publisher... 15:52:49 you want the end user experience to be good but not step on any toes... 15:53:06 at the end of the day we want what is best for the user but getting there is challenging 15:53:10 q? 15:53:49 Wendy: I will get this ready and we will discuss it next week 15:54:30 rrsagent, make minutes 15:54:31 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/08-epub-fxl-minutes.html SueNeu 15:54:49 rrsagent, log world 15:54:49 I'm logging. I don't understand 'log world', SueNeu. Try /msg RRSAgent help 15:56:24 zakim, end meeting 15:56:24 As of this point the attendees have been gautierchomel, wendyreid, gpellegrino, jgriggs_prh, SueNeu, Hadrien 15:56:26 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 15:56:28 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/08-epub-fxl-minutes.html Zakim 15:56:33 I am happy to have been of service, wendyreid; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 15:56:34 Zakim has left #epub-fxl 15:56:43 rrsagent, bye 15:56:43 I see no action items