13:49:08 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pmwg
13:49:12 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/01/05-pmwg-irc
13:49:12 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:49:13 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group
13:49:18 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2024-01-05: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2024Jan/0000.html
13:49:19 <ivan> Chair: wendy
13:49:19 <ivan> Date: 2024-01-05
13:49:19 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2024Jan/0000.html
13:49:20 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group Telco
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13:56:36 <ivan> present+
13:56:41 <ivan> present+ george
13:56:53 <dhall> present+
13:57:35 <George> George has joined #pmwg
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14:00:17 <tzviya> present+
14:00:22 <wendyreid> present+
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14:00:45 <ivan> present+ gautierchomel
14:00:52 <ivan> present+ brady
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14:01:02 <ivan> present+ avneesh
14:01:02 <toshiakikoike> present+
14:01:06 <AvneeshSingh> present+
14:01:30 <gautierchomel> present+
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14:01:52 <ivan> scribe+ gautierchomel
14:01:54 <gautierchomel> scribe+
14:02:14 <ivan> present+ shiestyle
14:02:25 <duga> present+
14:03:48 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/tdm-reservation-protocol/issues/33
14:03:53 <wendyreid> https://w3c.github.io/tdm-reservation-protocol/spec/tdmrep-epub.html#sec-epub
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14:05:01 <gautierchomel> wendyreid: there's a proposal to have tdm in EPUB files.
14:05:05 <ivan> guest+ James_Yanchak
14:07:08 <gautierchomel> James_Yanchak: tdm working group has covered many formats, EPUB is the final primory format to deal with. Do we do it a book level, file level? File level is easy as it's HTML, book levl would be more accurate, but it's adding a namespace in the OPF.
14:08:06 <tzviya> q+ to ask if this for rdm or ai or both
14:08:20 <wendyreid> ack tzviya
14:08:20 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask if this for rdm or ai or both
14:08:57 <ivan> This is how it would look side on the HTML side:
14:09:00 <ivan> <meta property="tdm:reservation">1</meta>
14:09:00 <ivan> <meta property="tdm:policy">https://provider.com/policies/policy.json</meta>
14:09:04 <gautierchomel> tzviya: what's he urgency?
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14:10:04 <wendyreid> present+ leonardr
14:10:16 <duga> q+
14:10:23 <leonardr> q+
14:10:53 <gautierchomel> James_Yanchak: it's related to the EU directive. More and more complains appears about files used for AI training. So it's important now.
14:10:58 <ivan> present+ leonardr
14:11:19 <wendyreid> ack duga
14:12:03 <gautierchomel> duga: lot of different groups are working of the subject, what are the interactions?
14:13:13 <gautierchomel> James_Yanchak: I would say we are focusing about publishing in the EU, I hope the other groups will follow us when it comes to EPUB.
14:13:16 <ivan> q+
14:13:45 <wendyreid> ack leonardr
14:14:34 <tzviya> q+ to ask if reading systems will support this
14:14:42 <gautierchomel> James_Yanchak: the main question, is about can we add a namespace? It causes EPUBs to be invalids. Original TDM is adding a namespace. But we can have a Prefix without adding a namespace (like DC:.
14:15:00 <wendyreid> q+
14:18:56 <gautierchomel> leonardr: I represent C2PA wich also work on the subject. C2PA supports EPUB. Regarding others industries (images, videos, audios), are not going the way to add something to the file. Also to know, many countries are working on legislations, the paysage is changing.
14:19:00 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:19:44 <leonardr> EPUB support in C2PA - https://c2pa.org/specifications/specifications/1.4/specs/C2PA_Specification.html#_embedding_manifests_into_zip_based_formats
14:20:13 <gautierchomel> ivan: back to the original question, prefix mecanism on the package document is easy because we have nothing to do. The question is do we need to add something to spec but it's not urgent.
14:20:13 <wendyreid> ack tzviya
14:20:13 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask if reading systems will support this
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14:20:47 <ivan> q+
14:21:36 <gautierchomel> tzviya: the question is would RS support one or another method. What will happen at the RS level? Can they process this information?
14:21:37 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
14:21:41 <gautierchomel> q+
14:23:40 <dhall> q+
14:23:47 <gautierchomel> wendyreid: reatilers and distributors will be looking at this information. OPF level looks the easier method to process this information. On the retail side, contracts are also playing a role, we won't do anything without a previous discussion with publishers.
14:23:48 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:23:49 <gautierchomel> q-
14:23:53 <duga> q+
14:24:44 <gautierchomel> ivan: in the standards we do not define what RS may should or must do with the metadatas. So we don't have to change anything in the standard.
14:25:18 <wendyreid> ack dhall
14:25:21 <gautierchomel> ivan: if you choose the HTML level, you have to also consider media resosurces.
14:26:10 <leonardr> q=
14:26:13 <leonardr> q+
14:26:16 <ivan> s/resosurces/resources/
14:27:27 <wendyreid> q+
14:27:41 <gautierchomel> dhall: there could be implications for what RS are allowed to do with the content. Specifically we may have to prevent usages depending on the specification of the restriction.
14:27:44 <gautierchomel> q+
14:27:45 <wendyreid> ack duga
14:29:25 <ivan> q+
14:29:29 <gautierchomel> duga: we don't have any control of what the TDM group doesthis sounds like managing digital rights. It sounds like DRM to me.
14:29:42 <wendyreid> ack leonardr
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14:31:47 <gautierchomel> leonardr: the line is fine, true. part of the issue is we are not speaking about copy rights. We are responding to legislations, trying to technicaly solve a legislative process. Still it's usage restriction.
14:31:51 <JamesY> present+
14:32:19 <gautierchomel> duga: we don't do DRM in the manifest, can we do TDM reservation?
14:32:25 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
14:32:34 <gautierchomel> q-
14:34:06 <duga> q+
14:34:52 <gautierchomel> wendyreid: EPUB ecosystem is not only the file, we also have ONIX associated metadata. When we get to the content, that's where EPUB should be able to reflect the publisher request negociated in the contracts.
14:34:56 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:36:26 <gautierchomel> ivan: prefix respects the charter. We only acknowledge that another group does something which is doable in EPUB.
14:36:45 <wendyreid> ack duga
14:37:55 <tzviya> q+ to respond to brady about tdm in package
14:38:16 <gautierchomel> duga: looking at the third choice, maybe we can just say don't do anything to the manifest.
14:39:51 <gautierchomel> duga: contracts and agrements with publishers don't allow you to break the law. the TDM implementation is over publishers arangements because it's legal.
14:39:58 <wendyreid> ack tzviya
14:39:58 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to respond to brady about tdm in package
14:40:18 <leonardr> q+
14:40:36 <wendyreid> q+
14:40:57 <gautierchomel> tzviya: it's important to meet with others people working on TDM. Maybe schedule a joint meeting.
14:41:48 <gautierchomel> tzviya: there may be a strong interest from publishers to have TDM not separated.
14:41:51 <wendyreid> ack leonardr
14:43:15 <gautierchomel> leonardr: C2PA does not modify the structure.
14:44:36 <George> q+
14:44:42 <gautierchomel> leonardr: C2PA or TDM don't adress translation. There's a clear technical difference between translation or recomandation algorithms and training an AI.
14:44:49 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
14:46:03 <wendyreid> ack George
14:46:43 <ivan> q+
14:46:48 <wendyreid> q+
14:47:20 <gautierchomel> George: some possible accessibility implications. Cognitive disability may request a simplified version of the text than can be offered by an AI. A blind person may want a more accurate description generated by AI.
14:47:27 <wendyreid>  ack ivan
14:48:57 <gautierchomel> ivan: parts of our discussions are relevant to the TDM group. Our focus should be how we answer the TDM communtity.
14:49:14 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
14:50:39 <ivan> q+
14:51:09 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:51:10 <gautierchomel> wendyreid: to respond the TDM group we need to talk with them. In the current state we don't have nothing to do but we may want to add a note to the EPUB spec.
14:51:44 <leonardr> q+
14:51:47 <wendyreid> q+
14:52:38 <gautierchomel> ivan: we don't take side about the best protocol, we are only responding to the question of the TDM group. Is it ok for us to have something added to the manifest or no?
14:52:55 <wendyreid> ack leonardr
14:53:10 <tzviya> q+ to suggest that we meet on TDM time
14:53:40 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
14:53:57 <duga> q+
14:54:19 <gautierchomel> leonardr: I agree with the group remaining agnostic to technical solutions.
14:54:42 <AvneeshSingh> q+
14:54:52 <wendyreid> ack tzviya
14:54:52 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to suggest that we meet on TDM time
14:55:29 <gautierchomel> tzviya: as we have questions and concerns about how solutions will be implemented we should discuss with the TDM group
14:55:36 <wendyreid> ack duga
14:56:26 <gautierchomel> duga: it looks like we see no problem with the prefix approach proposed by the TDM group
14:56:58 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
14:57:00 <gautierchomel> ivan: my proposal is to say the TDM group yes, it works.
14:57:42 <tzviya> s/as we have questions and concerns about how solutions will be implemented we should discuss with the TDM group/ as we have questions and concerns about how solutions will be implemented we should discuss with the TDM group in one of their meetings
14:57:54 <gautierchomel> AvneeshSingh: maybe the Community Group will want to adress the side discussions.
14:59:41 <gautierchomel> wendyreid: we'll discuss with the TDM group to point our concerns and comment that the proposition is doable.
15:00:06 <gautierchomel> wendyreid: there's no blocker.
15:00:32 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:00:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/05-pmwg-minutes.html ivan