17:59:39 RRSAgent has joined #aria 17:59:43 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/01/04-aria-irc 17:59:43 RRSAgent, make logs Public 17:59:44 Meeting: ARIA WG 17:59:53 agendabot, find agenda 17:59:53 jamesn, OK. This may take a minute... 17:59:55 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ecffaf8b-8aa7-4acc-b238-6088a86cf12f/20240104T130000/ 17:59:55 clear agenda 17:59:55 agenda+ -> New Issue Triage http://tinyurl.com/bdfaj648 17:59:55 agenda+ -> New PR Triage http://tinyurl.com/nhd2udcv 17:59:56 agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Aweb-platform-tests%2Fwpt+is%3Aopen+label%3Awai-aria%2Caccname&type=pullrequests 17:59:59 agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates 18:00:02 agenda+ -> Reviewers: Fixed handling of surrounding whitespace for CSS pseudo elements, inline and block level elements, and embedded widgets. https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/168 18:00:06 agenda+ -> Status update: aria-controls spec update https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1996 18:00:09 agenda+ -> Web devs attempt to nest headings; what to do? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2086 18:00:12 agenda+ -> Consider providing a way for authors to customize the announcement of state https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2085 18:00:15 agenda+ -> handling multi-selection / selection confirmation of action for menus https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2067 18:00:18 agenda+ -> Consider a mechanism to associate controls without an explicit grouping https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1721 18:00:21 agenda+ -> ARIAMixin has many integer attributes with string types and uses DOMString? incorrectly https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1110 18:00:43 present+ 18:00:56 melsumner has joined #aria 18:01:20 scotto has joined #aria 18:01:26 Adam_Page has joined #aria 18:03:11 Adam_Page has joined #aria 18:04:09 scribe: dmontalvo 18:04:19 zakim, take up next 18:04:19 agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage http://tinyurl.com/bdfaj648 -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:04:32 present+ 18:04:33 giacomo-petri has joined #aria 18:04:47 present+ 18:04:49 present+ 18:05:01 JN: Just 2 new issues 18:05:35 CurtBellew has joined #aria 18:05:38 ... First, I am hessitant to document something in the ARIA spec. 18:05:42 Valerie: It has agenda 18:05:43 present+ 18:05:49 JN: You can talk about it next week 18:06:06 JN: I am off on sabatical for the next month, I'll be back early February 18:06:30 Computed role for role="treegrid" there is a PR for that 18:06:32 zakim, take up next 18:06:32 agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage http://tinyurl.com/nhd2udcv -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:07:04 JN: There are a few. The first is I added a changelog for ARIA 1.3 in prep for publishing 18:07:42 ... It's a commit log from before the 1.3 changes started, then took the 1.2 commits and checked if they were common 18:07:54 present+ 18:08:03 ... Unfortunately tihs is not automatic as the commits in to the stable branch are cherry picks 18:08:18 ... Then I filtered out what I thought it's editorial 18:08:42 ... I am asking people to look if everything in there is necessary there 18:08:56 ... I will be merging it this week 18:09:02 JC: You can assign me to that one 18:09:32 JN: I used the RS Changelog stuff but I just copied it over to our repo 18:10:14 JN: The next one is to revert the association list stuff. Do we agree we want to revert this association? We can still put in something in the future, but probably not a good idea for FPWD 18:10:37 JC: I need to review this one 18:10:56 Scott: Would we be removing this from the changelog? 18:11:06 JN: It would be good, I guess we'll merge the other one first 18:11:48 JC: I added the comment to that particular line 18:11:56 JN: Next one sounds like an editors thing 18:12:12 JN: Next one was created by Matt, we need some reviewers for this 18:12:19 s/that particular line/that particular line in #2096/ 18:12:38 JN: Adam and Rahim will review this 18:13:13 JN: Next is the treegrid role. Any reason we can't merge this? 18:13:22 JC: If you don't mind assigning me too 18:13:31 Valerie: Assign me, I'll merge when done 18:14:23 JN: Another about trees, needs some reviewers. Same people would be preferred. 18:14:42 JN: Next -- we need James Craig to review + implementation tests 18:14:51 JC: This is the value false is the same 18:15:25 Scott: We discussed a couple of weeks ago. This is aria-hidden="False" doing anything. IF we wnat something to happen probably that'd need to be a new value 18:15:28 q+ 18:15:45 ack Rahim 18:15:59 present+ 18:16:04 JC: I don't want to merge this until tests pass I'll use the review to flag things specially on the empty check box 18:16:24 Rahim: Is MDN and similar updated when things like these are merged? 18:16:39 Valerie: We should probably add a check to make sure we at least keep track of these things 18:16:53 zakim, take up next 18:16:53 agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Aweb-platform-tests%2Fwpt+is%3Aopen+label%3Awai-aria%2Caccname&type=pullrequests -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:17:38 JC: I think these are being addressed, thank you Rahim 18:18:55 JC: Alternate spelling for labelledby (one or two ls) 18:19:33 ... It's been around forever, not sure what the state was. Thanks Rahimn for writing these tests 18:20:21 ... Browsers are doing different things, no need to discuss this right now, but interesting to see these interoperability issues 18:20:30 BG: Is this used a lot? 18:20:41 JC: Not a great figure but still relevant 18:21:39 JC: I think we should tackle this like if there are two the first should win 18:22:21 zakim, take up next 18:22:21 agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:23:37 JN: No Deep Dive for next week. If anyone has anything please propose something 18:23:40 zakim, close item 4 18:23:40 agendum 4, -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates, closed 18:23:42 I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 18:23:42 5. -> Reviewers: Fixed handling of surrounding whitespace for CSS pseudo elements, inline and block level elements, and embedded widgets. https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/168 18:23:42 ... [from agendabot] 18:23:44 zakim, take up item 5 18:23:44 agendum 5 -- -> Reviewers: Fixed handling of surrounding whitespace for CSS pseudo elements, inline and block level elements, and embedded widgets. 18:23:46 ... https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/168 -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:24:39 JN: We need to get this reviewed. JC and Aron especially as you are implementers 18:24:53 BG: It's holding us up 18:25:07 JN: We need to get AccName to CR 18:25:47 JN: I was re-requested review because there were some unresolved conflicts which I think is fixed now 18:25:53 BG: Yes, these are corrected 18:25:58 Valerie: I sent a ping to Aron 18:26:22 JC: I think I never got back to it because my comment from Dec 2022 does not seem addressed 18:26:38 ... Line 479 18:27:03 ... "Spacing" is ambiguous. 18:27:18 JN: There is a link to the definition of whitespace 18:27:49 JC: We may resolve this if we say whitespace 18:28:09 ... And also whitespace is merely text, I don't think it's ready yet 18:28:43 BG: I don't understand. When you say whitespace is textual content, I'm thinking of printed characters. Whitespace isn't something you can read 18:28:52 JC: That's one clarification that needs to happen 18:29:57 ... I'll try to review and add additional comments. I'll provide a suggested change. I think we have now ASCII whitespace definition 18:30:03 BG: Any clarifications are welcome 18:30:30 Valerie: Aron took a look and left a comment with a question 18:31:18 BG: I need to check it, it was a long time ago when I last checked 18:31:45 Valerie: Are there tests for this? 18:32:21 JC: I and Rahim wrote soome tests for the pseudos but it was difficult because of the whitespace issues 18:32:25 zakim, take up next 18:32:25 agendum 6 -- -> Status update: aria-controls spec update https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1996 -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:32:55 JN: Where are we with this? 18:33:27 Scot: I am not really sure. I am not sure if it's worth doing anything at this point 18:33:34 JN: I kind of lean towards that as well 18:34:35 Scott: Aria-details is for content that provides more details, whereas aria-controls indicates which interactive elements modify that in particular. I don't really know what we would be adding if we force that and what we would lose if we don't have it 18:34:35 q+ 18:34:46 JN: Is it even necessary for list boxes? 18:34:52 Scott: Good questions 18:35:03 s/list/combo/ 18:35:11 JC: I'd be hessitant to change anything about existing specs when testability is not there yet 18:35:37 ... That would lead towards more divergence 18:35:50 ... Aria-controls has more potential that has still not been realized 18:35:56 q+ 18:36:06 ack jcraig 18:36:07 ... Instead of closing, we can mark it as "blocked for testability" or similar 18:36:17 ... Maybe this year we could make some progress on testing these things 18:37:24 JN: I think we are so far away from being able to test that in AT, which is where the problem is ... 18:37:58 ... If itis not doing anything useful, why don't we deprecate it 18:38:14 ack me 18:38:34 JC: I know there was a previous iteration on combo boxes that relied on the controls relationships instead of in active descendents 18:38:54 JN: I'd agree with that. We would need to fully test it in all places where we think it's useful 18:39:29 JN: But deprecating if something works in at least one implementations it's more likely to break that one implementation 18:40:00 JC: I do recall it was used in the past 18:40:05 q+ 18:40:11 ack Rahim 18:40:14 JN: Then we should not deprecate it becuase it seems it's used somewhere for combo boxes 18:40:40 Rahim: Isn't this also used in other widgets such as tabs or disclosures? 18:40:50 JN: The thing is whether it does something useful 18:40:55 Scott: Not really 18:41:06 JN: Seems like busy work for authors instead of being useful 18:41:23 Scott: If we know where to use it it could serve a purpose 18:41:41 Adam: It's good for authors to build up the programatic associations 18:42:04 JC: I don't think it meets the bar that we've had in the past for deprecating stuff 18:42:53 ... Past deprecated features where weird APIs, this one is not particularly weird and is already used 18:43:24 Scott: aria-details was far more descriptive than aria-controls. Feedback suggests that we have not done enough to communicate purpose of aria-controls 18:43:50 ... We can either close this or further editorialize the spec with further descriptions of where this works 18:44:04 JN: Does this make aria-controls better or not? 18:44:34 Scott: I'm fine with either direction: closing it or doing some mor wordsmithing 18:44:45 JN: If it makes the spec better we should probably do it 18:44:54 Valerie: Let's update the title to "editorial" 18:45:21 Scott: I'll write some additional notes in the issue 18:45:27 JN:Thank you 18:45:31 zakim, take up next 18:45:31 agendum 7 -- -> Web devs attempt to nest headings; what to do? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2086 -- taken up [from agendabot] 18:46:38 JC: With this code example, I'm not sure what should be exposed 18:47:00 JN: What happens in HTML if you have an h3 and an h2 inside that 18:47:31 Scott: You get an empty h2 and then an h3 with whatever text you had 18:48:07 JC: So it treats it like a malformed element continaution 18:48:32 Scott: Some AT may also ignore these empty constructs 18:49:21 Melanie: IF you pull up the VO rotor you'll see h2 and h3 with the text 18:49:33 I believe this is described in the "in body" insertion mode in the HTML spec: https://html.spec.whatwg.org/#parsing-main-inbody 18:49:39 JC: It seems it is concatenating then. HTMLO parsing works but the platform does not 18:50:00 ... IF it matches HTML parsing then it may make sense evey if it's more difficult form an implementation perspective 18:50:40 Scott: Do we wnat to clearly scope it for just headings? IT could easily be extended to paragraphs and other structures 18:50:45 JN: What's currently exposed? 18:51:11 s/exposed?/exposed with this markup?/ 18:51:24 JC: It'd depend on the engines 18:51:32 Adam: IN Chrome I got what Melanie was saying 18:51:50 JN: Do we need to do anything with this? It's not what they wanted but they coded it wrongly 18:51:56 s/wrongly/wrong/ 18:52:18 JC: We should have consistency 18:52:41 JN: This doesn't sound great for the users but you can't look at everybody's wrong markup and try to fix it 18:53:12 JC: But now that we've found this, we should do something. We should not write interop test if the spec is not clear on this 18:53:31 q+ 18:55:12 Scott: With a similar code, I can tell that using JAWS only the heading level 4 is exposed. With narrator aria-level 2 is exposed and the nested heading is not exposed. Different screen readers yielddifferent experiences 18:55:30 BG: I would say not to nest headings. If we qualify then we are implcitly saying it's OK to do so 18:56:07 JC: We could do the two things. This should not be done but if you do here's what should happen 18:57:03 JC: Then we should write some test. Tihs is a multi nesting thing. We can make assumptions as to which of this are. We'd still be at the browser level, we still cannot test AT specifically 18:57:19 Adam: I'll take that WPT work 18:57:55 ack mel 18:58:06 JC: No need to open a specific interop accessibility issue, just link the PR to this issue and use the "do not merge yet" label 18:58:40 Melanie: Do we have and SC that would support this, for example 1.3.1? 18:58:43 q+ 18:58:50 q+ 18:58:54 ... I think the HTML element should take precedence 18:59:23 JC: I agree with this being an approach, but there's currently nothin in the spec 18:59:40 ... The div with the role of heading does not conflict with the HTML h2 19:00:04 q+ 19:00:17 ... There is not an author error in any spec as far as I can tell 19:00:36 ... IF we think that's an author error ,we sshould clarify it in the spec 19:00:41 ack me 19:00:49 ack s 19:00:51 ack scotto 19:01:21 ack ad 19:01:25 ack adam 19:01:32 Scott: With Chrome and MSAA2 the three headings are exposed. With UIA they are not exposed 19:01:46 Adam: I think there was a typo in the issue comment 19:01:51 JC: Yes, I'll correct it 19:02:09 rrsagent, make minutes 19:02:11 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/04-aria-minutes.html dmontalvo 19:03:38 jongund has joined #aria 19:03:38 Chair: James 19:03:39 rrsagent, make minutes 19:03:41 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/04-aria-minutes.html dmontalvo 19:22:12 jongund has joined #aria 19:43:22 jongund has joined #aria 20:00:18 jongund has joined #aria 22:17:10 jongund has joined #aria 22:43:51 jongund has joined #aria 23:11:32 jongund has joined #aria 23:12:25 jongund has joined #aria 23:21:40 jongund has joined #aria 23:34:10 jongund has joined #aria