IRC log of aria on 2024-01-04

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:59:39 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #aria
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/01/04-aria-irc
17:59:43 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:59:44 [Zakim]
Meeting: ARIA WG
17:59:53 [jamesn]
agendabot, find agenda
17:59:53 [agendabot]
jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
17:59:55 [agendabot]
agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ecffaf8b-8aa7-4acc-b238-6088a86cf12f/20240104T130000/
17:59:55 [agendabot]
clear agenda
17:59:55 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> New Issue Triage http://tinyurl.com/bdfaj648
17:59:55 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> New PR Triage http://tinyurl.com/nhd2udcv
17:59:56 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Aweb-platform-tests%2Fwpt+is%3Aopen+label%3Awai-aria%2Caccname&type=pullrequests
17:59:59 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
18:00:02 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Reviewers: Fixed handling of surrounding whitespace for CSS pseudo elements, inline and block level elements, and embedded widgets. https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/168
18:00:06 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Status update: aria-controls spec update https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1996
18:00:09 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Web devs attempt to nest headings; what to do? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2086
18:00:12 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Consider providing a way for authors to customize the announcement of state https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2085
18:00:15 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> handling multi-selection / selection confirmation of action for menus https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2067
18:00:18 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Consider a mechanism to associate controls without an explicit grouping https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1721
18:00:21 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> ARIAMixin has many integer attributes with string types and uses DOMString? incorrectly https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1110
18:00:43 [spectranaut_]
present+
18:00:56 [melsumner]
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18:01:26 [Adam_Page]
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18:04:09 [dmontalvo]
scribe: dmontalvo
18:04:19 [dmontalvo]
zakim, take up next
18:04:19 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage http://tinyurl.com/bdfaj648 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:04:32 [Rahim]
present+
18:04:33 [giacomo-petri]
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18:04:47 [scotto]
present+
18:04:49 [giacomo-petri]
present+
18:05:01 [dmontalvo]
JN: Just 2 new issues
18:05:35 [CurtBellew]
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18:05:38 [dmontalvo]
... First, I am hessitant to document something in the ARIA spec.
18:05:42 [dmontalvo]
Valerie: It has agenda
18:05:43 [CurtBellew]
present+
18:05:49 [dmontalvo]
JN: You can talk about it next week
18:06:06 [dmontalvo]
JN: I am off on sabatical for the next month, I'll be back early February
18:06:30 [dmontalvo]
Computed role for role="treegrid" there is a PR for that
18:06:32 [dmontalvo]
zakim, take up next
18:06:32 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage http://tinyurl.com/nhd2udcv -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:07:04 [dmontalvo]
JN: There are a few. The first is I added a changelog for ARIA 1.3 in prep for publishing
18:07:42 [dmontalvo]
... It's a commit log from before the 1.3 changes started, then took the 1.2 commits and checked if they were common
18:07:54 [melsumner]
present+
18:08:03 [dmontalvo]
... Unfortunately tihs is not automatic as the commits in to the stable branch are cherry picks
18:08:18 [dmontalvo]
... Then I filtered out what I thought it's editorial
18:08:42 [dmontalvo]
... I am asking people to look if everything in there is necessary there
18:08:56 [dmontalvo]
... I will be merging it this week
18:09:02 [dmontalvo]
JC: You can assign me to that one
18:09:32 [dmontalvo]
JN: I used the RS Changelog stuff but I just copied it over to our repo
18:10:14 [dmontalvo]
JN: The next one is to revert the association list stuff. Do we agree we want to revert this association? We can still put in something in the future, but probably not a good idea for FPWD
18:10:37 [dmontalvo]
JC: I need to review this one
18:10:56 [dmontalvo]
Scott: Would we be removing this from the changelog?
18:11:06 [dmontalvo]
JN: It would be good, I guess we'll merge the other one first
18:11:48 [dmontalvo]
JC: I added the comment to that particular line
18:11:56 [dmontalvo]
JN: Next one sounds like an editors thing
18:12:12 [dmontalvo]
JN: Next one was created by Matt, we need some reviewers for this
18:12:19 [jcraig]
s/that particular line/that particular line in #2096/
18:12:38 [dmontalvo]
JN: Adam and Rahim will review this
18:13:13 [dmontalvo]
JN: Next is the treegrid role. Any reason we can't merge this?
18:13:22 [dmontalvo]
JC: If you don't mind assigning me too
18:13:31 [dmontalvo]
Valerie: Assign me, I'll merge when done
18:14:23 [dmontalvo]
JN: Another about trees, needs some reviewers. Same people would be preferred.
18:14:42 [dmontalvo]
JN: Next -- we need James Craig to review + implementation tests
18:14:51 [dmontalvo]
JC: This is the value false is the same
18:15:25 [dmontalvo]
Scott: We discussed a couple of weeks ago. This is aria-hidden="False" doing anything. IF we wnat something to happen probably that'd need to be a new value
18:15:28 [Rahim]
q+
18:15:45 [jamesn]
ack Rahim
18:15:59 [Adam_Page]
present+
18:16:04 [dmontalvo]
JC: I don't want to merge this until tests pass I'll use the review to flag things specially on the empty check box
18:16:24 [dmontalvo]
Rahim: Is MDN and similar updated when things like these are merged?
18:16:39 [dmontalvo]
Valerie: We should probably add a check to make sure we at least keep track of these things
18:16:53 [dmontalvo]
zakim, take up next
18:16:53 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Aweb-platform-tests%2Fwpt+is%3Aopen+label%3Awai-aria%2Caccname&type=pullrequests -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:17:38 [dmontalvo]
JC: I think these are being addressed, thank you Rahim
18:18:55 [dmontalvo]
JC: Alternate spelling for labelledby (one or two ls)
18:19:33 [dmontalvo]
... It's been around forever, not sure what the state was. Thanks Rahimn for writing these tests
18:20:21 [dmontalvo]
... Browsers are doing different things, no need to discuss this right now, but interesting to see these interoperability issues
18:20:30 [dmontalvo]
BG: Is this used a lot?
18:20:41 [dmontalvo]
JC: Not a great figure but still relevant
18:21:39 [dmontalvo]
JC: I think we should tackle this like if there are two the first should win
18:22:21 [dmontalvo]
zakim, take up next
18:22:21 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:23:37 [dmontalvo]
JN: No Deep Dive for next week. If anyone has anything please propose something
18:23:40 [dmontalvo]
zakim, close item 4
18:23:40 [Zakim]
agendum 4, -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates, closed
18:23:42 [Zakim]
I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:23:42 [Zakim]
5. -> Reviewers: Fixed handling of surrounding whitespace for CSS pseudo elements, inline and block level elements, and embedded widgets. https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/168
18:23:42 [Zakim]
... [from agendabot]
18:23:44 [dmontalvo]
zakim, take up item 5
18:23:44 [Zakim]
agendum 5 -- -> Reviewers: Fixed handling of surrounding whitespace for CSS pseudo elements, inline and block level elements, and embedded widgets.
18:23:46 [Zakim]
... https://github.com/w3c/accname/pull/168 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:24:39 [dmontalvo]
JN: We need to get this reviewed. JC and Aron especially as you are implementers
18:24:53 [dmontalvo]
BG: It's holding us up
18:25:07 [dmontalvo]
JN: We need to get AccName to CR
18:25:47 [dmontalvo]
JN: I was re-requested review because there were some unresolved conflicts which I think is fixed now
18:25:53 [dmontalvo]
BG: Yes, these are corrected
18:25:58 [dmontalvo]
Valerie: I sent a ping to Aron
18:26:22 [dmontalvo]
JC: I think I never got back to it because my comment from Dec 2022 does not seem addressed
18:26:38 [dmontalvo]
... Line 479
18:27:03 [dmontalvo]
... "Spacing" is ambiguous.
18:27:18 [dmontalvo]
JN: There is a link to the definition of whitespace
18:27:49 [dmontalvo]
JC: We may resolve this if we say whitespace
18:28:09 [dmontalvo]
... And also whitespace is merely text, I don't think it's ready yet
18:28:43 [dmontalvo]
BG: I don't understand. When you say whitespace is textual content, I'm thinking of printed characters. Whitespace isn't something you can read
18:28:52 [dmontalvo]
JC: That's one clarification that needs to happen
18:29:57 [dmontalvo]
... I'll try to review and add additional comments. I'll provide a suggested change. I think we have now ASCII whitespace definition
18:30:03 [dmontalvo]
BG: Any clarifications are welcome
18:30:30 [dmontalvo]
Valerie: Aron took a look and left a comment with a question
18:31:18 [dmontalvo]
BG: I need to check it, it was a long time ago when I last checked
18:31:45 [dmontalvo]
Valerie: Are there tests for this?
18:32:21 [dmontalvo]
JC: I and Rahim wrote soome tests for the pseudos but it was difficult because of the whitespace issues
18:32:25 [dmontalvo]
zakim, take up next
18:32:25 [Zakim]
agendum 6 -- -> Status update: aria-controls spec update https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1996 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:32:55 [dmontalvo]
JN: Where are we with this?
18:33:27 [dmontalvo]
Scot: I am not really sure. I am not sure if it's worth doing anything at this point
18:33:34 [dmontalvo]
JN: I kind of lean towards that as well
18:34:35 [dmontalvo]
Scott: Aria-details is for content that provides more details, whereas aria-controls indicates which interactive elements modify that in particular. I don't really know what we would be adding if we force that and what we would lose if we don't have it
18:34:35 [jcraig]
q+
18:34:46 [dmontalvo]
JN: Is it even necessary for list boxes?
18:34:52 [dmontalvo]
Scott: Good questions
18:35:03 [jamesn]
s/list/combo/
18:35:11 [dmontalvo]
JC: I'd be hessitant to change anything about existing specs when testability is not there yet
18:35:37 [dmontalvo]
... That would lead towards more divergence
18:35:50 [dmontalvo]
... Aria-controls has more potential that has still not been realized
18:35:56 [jamesn]
q+
18:36:06 [jamesn]
ack jcraig
18:36:07 [dmontalvo]
... Instead of closing, we can mark it as "blocked for testability" or similar
18:36:17 [dmontalvo]
... Maybe this year we could make some progress on testing these things
18:37:24 [dmontalvo]
JN: I think we are so far away from being able to test that in AT, which is where the problem is ...
18:37:58 [dmontalvo]
... If itis not doing anything useful, why don't we deprecate it
18:38:14 [jamesn]
ack me
18:38:34 [dmontalvo]
JC: I know there was a previous iteration on combo boxes that relied on the controls relationships instead of in active descendents
18:38:54 [dmontalvo]
JN: I'd agree with that. We would need to fully test it in all places where we think it's useful
18:39:29 [dmontalvo]
JN: But deprecating if something works in at least one implementations it's more likely to break that one implementation
18:40:00 [dmontalvo]
JC: I do recall it was used in the past
18:40:05 [Rahim]
q+
18:40:11 [jamesn]
ack Rahim
18:40:14 [dmontalvo]
JN: Then we should not deprecate it becuase it seems it's used somewhere for combo boxes
18:40:40 [dmontalvo]
Rahim: Isn't this also used in other widgets such as tabs or disclosures?
18:40:50 [dmontalvo]
JN: The thing is whether it does something useful
18:40:55 [dmontalvo]
Scott: Not really
18:41:06 [dmontalvo]
JN: Seems like busy work for authors instead of being useful
18:41:23 [dmontalvo]
Scott: If we know where to use it it could serve a purpose
18:41:41 [dmontalvo]
Adam: It's good for authors to build up the programatic associations
18:42:04 [dmontalvo]
JC: I don't think it meets the bar that we've had in the past for deprecating stuff
18:42:53 [dmontalvo]
... Past deprecated features where weird APIs, this one is not particularly weird and is already used
18:43:24 [dmontalvo]
Scott: aria-details was far more descriptive than aria-controls. Feedback suggests that we have not done enough to communicate purpose of aria-controls
18:43:50 [dmontalvo]
... We can either close this or further editorialize the spec with further descriptions of where this works
18:44:04 [dmontalvo]
JN: Does this make aria-controls better or not?
18:44:34 [dmontalvo]
Scott: I'm fine with either direction: closing it or doing some mor wordsmithing
18:44:45 [dmontalvo]
JN: If it makes the spec better we should probably do it
18:44:54 [dmontalvo]
Valerie: Let's update the title to "editorial"
18:45:21 [dmontalvo]
Scott: I'll write some additional notes in the issue
18:45:27 [dmontalvo]
JN:Thank you
18:45:31 [dmontalvo]
zakim, take up next
18:45:31 [Zakim]
agendum 7 -- -> Web devs attempt to nest headings; what to do? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2086 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:46:38 [dmontalvo]
JC: With this code example, I'm not sure what should be exposed
18:47:00 [dmontalvo]
JN: What happens in HTML if you have an h3 and an h2 inside that
18:47:31 [dmontalvo]
Scott: You get an empty h2 and then an h3 with whatever text you had
18:48:07 [dmontalvo]
JC: So it treats it like a malformed element continaution
18:48:32 [dmontalvo]
Scott: Some AT may also ignore these empty constructs
18:49:21 [dmontalvo]
Melanie: IF you pull up the VO rotor you'll see h2 and h3 with the text
18:49:33 [Rahim]
I believe this is described in the "in body" insertion mode in the HTML spec: https://html.spec.whatwg.org/#parsing-main-inbody
18:49:39 [dmontalvo]
JC: It seems it is concatenating then. HTMLO parsing works but the platform does not
18:50:00 [dmontalvo]
... IF it matches HTML parsing then it may make sense evey if it's more difficult form an implementation perspective
18:50:40 [dmontalvo]
Scott: Do we wnat to clearly scope it for just headings? IT could easily be extended to paragraphs and other structures
18:50:45 [dmontalvo]
JN: What's currently exposed?
18:51:11 [dmontalvo]
s/exposed?/exposed with this markup?/
18:51:24 [dmontalvo]
JC: It'd depend on the engines
18:51:32 [dmontalvo]
Adam: IN Chrome I got what Melanie was saying
18:51:50 [dmontalvo]
JN: Do we need to do anything with this? It's not what they wanted but they coded it wrongly
18:51:56 [dmontalvo]
s/wrongly/wrong/
18:52:18 [dmontalvo]
JC: We should have consistency
18:52:41 [dmontalvo]
JN: This doesn't sound great for the users but you can't look at everybody's wrong markup and try to fix it
18:53:12 [dmontalvo]
JC: But now that we've found this, we should do something. We should not write interop test if the spec is not clear on this
18:53:31 [melsumner]
q+
18:55:12 [dmontalvo]
Scott: With a similar code, I can tell that using JAWS only the heading level 4 is exposed. With narrator aria-level 2 is exposed and the nested heading is not exposed. Different screen readers yielddifferent experiences
18:55:30 [dmontalvo]
BG: I would say not to nest headings. If we qualify then we are implcitly saying it's OK to do so
18:56:07 [dmontalvo]
JC: We could do the two things. This should not be done but if you do here's what should happen
18:57:03 [dmontalvo]
JC: Then we should write some test. Tihs is a multi nesting thing. We can make assumptions as to which of this are. We'd still be at the browser level, we still cannot test AT specifically
18:57:19 [dmontalvo]
Adam: I'll take that WPT work
18:57:55 [jamesn]
ack mel
18:58:06 [dmontalvo]
JC: No need to open a specific interop accessibility issue, just link the PR to this issue and use the "do not merge yet" label
18:58:40 [dmontalvo]
Melanie: Do we have and SC that would support this, for example 1.3.1?
18:58:43 [jcraig]
q+
18:58:50 [scotto]
q+
18:58:54 [dmontalvo]
... I think the HTML element should take precedence
18:59:23 [dmontalvo]
JC: I agree with this being an approach, but there's currently nothin in the spec
18:59:40 [dmontalvo]
... The div with the role of heading does not conflict with the HTML h2
19:00:04 [Adam_Page]
q+
19:00:17 [dmontalvo]
... There is not an author error in any spec as far as I can tell
19:00:36 [dmontalvo]
... IF we think that's an author error ,we sshould clarify it in the spec
19:00:41 [jcraig]
ack me
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ack s
19:00:51 [jamesn]
ack scotto
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ack ad
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ack adam
19:01:32 [dmontalvo]
Scott: With Chrome and MSAA2 the three headings are exposed. With UIA they are not exposed
19:01:46 [dmontalvo]
Adam: I think there was a typo in the issue comment
19:01:51 [dmontalvo]
JC: Yes, I'll correct it
19:02:09 [dmontalvo]
rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/04-aria-minutes.html dmontalvo
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Chair: James
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rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/01/04-aria-minutes.html dmontalvo
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