14:59:42 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wot-td
14:59:46 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/12/20-wot-td-irc
15:01:59 <luca_barbato> luca_barbato has joined #wot-td
15:04:38 <dape> dape has joined #wot-td
15:08:36 <kaz> meeting: WoT-WG - TD-TF
15:09:40 <mjk> mjk has joined #wot-td
15:10:12 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Ege_Korkan, Daniel_Peintner, Jan_Romann, Luca_Barbato, Michael_Koster
15:10:28 <luca_barbato> scribenick: luca_barbato
15:10:31 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
15:10:36 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:10:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/20-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:10:47 <luca_barbato> topic: Agenda Review
15:11:03 <kaz> agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#December_20.2C_2023
15:12:02 <luca_barbato> ege: Does anybody has something specific to discuss today?
15:12:30 <kaz> (none)
15:12:48 <luca_barbato> topic: Minutes
15:13:12 <luca_barbato> ege: There is a typo, beside that anybody has other issue to address?
15:13:26 <luca_barbato> (none)
15:13:34 <luca_barbato> ege: minutes approved
15:13:34 <kaz> i|There|-> https://www.w3.org/2023/12/13-wot-td-minutes.html Dec-13|
15:14:06 <kaz> i|min|(typo fixed)|
15:14:09 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:14:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/20-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:14:18 <luca_barbato> topic: TD Call slot
15:14:20 <luca_barbato> ege: Everybody received the notification ?
15:14:29 <luca_barbato> lu: I did, so others should
15:14:36 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/d36cf33e-0359-45f8-be6c-5c93a9ef3cb1/20240110T100000/ Wed slot 1
15:14:39 <dape> q+
15:14:41 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/a9562124-2c66-4383-b374-af368be911a8/20240111T090000/
15:14:56 <kaz> s|00/|00/ Thu slot 2|
15:14:58 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:14:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/20-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:15:16 <luca_barbato> daniel: The calendar is showing this slot as 2hours still
15:15:50 <kaz> q+
15:15:50 <kaz> ack d
15:16:23 <kaz> ack k
15:17:01 <kaz> kaz: people should remove the old entry on their calendar, then import the new entry
15:17:03 <luca_barbato> lu: it is fine for me, probably refreshing fixes it.
15:17:25 <kaz> i/people/scribenick: kaz/
15:17:33 <kaz> i/it is/scribenick: luca_barbato/
15:17:36 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:17:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/20-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:17:55 <kaz> chair: Ege, Koster
15:18:33 <kaz> present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima
15:18:43 <luca_barbato> ege: From mid January, Wed we prioritize TD.next topics, on Thur we prioritize Bindings topics
15:20:11 <luca_barbato> ege: I propose to move the old entries in per-year subpages
15:20:34 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:20:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/20-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:21:16 <kaz> i|I propose to|topic: Wiki organization|
15:21:41 <luca_barbato> ege: Anybody against it?
15:22:03 <kaz> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Marketing_WebConf Marketing TF wiki as an example
15:22:04 <luca_barbato> daniel: we should also clean up the other wiki pages
15:22:28 <cris_> cris_ has joined #wot-td
15:22:32 <kaz> i/we should/(none)/
15:22:36 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:22:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/20-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:22:44 <luca_barbato> subtopic: WoT Resources
15:22:49 <luca_barbato> ege: how do we want to do the versioning?
15:22:52 <kaz> s/subtopic/topic/
15:22:53 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:22:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/20-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:23:07 <kaz> regrets+ Mahda
15:23:46 <kaz> q+
15:23:50 <mjk> q?
15:23:54 <luca_barbato> ege: How do we want to do this?
15:24:05 <mjk> q+
15:24:37 <luca_barbato> kaz: I suggest we clarify what we mean with versioning, both as TF and as whole WG
15:24:41 <JKRhb> JKRhb has joined #wot-td
15:25:08 <luca_barbato> kaz: we should also describe clearly which are bugfixes and which are new features
15:25:11 <kaz> ack k
15:25:21 <luca_barbato> q+
15:25:47 <kaz> qq+
15:25:49 <luca_barbato> ege: for 1.1 I would only consider bugfixes
15:26:56 <kaz> ack k
15:26:56 <Zakim> kaz, you wanted to react to kaz
15:27:06 <luca_barbato> kaz: so bugfixes can cover ttl jsonschema and html, each might have different meaning
15:27:25 <kaz> present+ Cristiano_Aguzzi
15:28:24 <luca_barbato> mjk: I agree with MM we should track all changes, and I suggest to use semver with its 3 levels
15:28:40 <kaz> s/semver/semantic versioning/
15:29:08 <kaz> q+
15:29:16 <kaz> q-
15:29:21 <kaz> ack m
15:29:22 <kaz> qq+
15:30:14 <kaz> s/levels/levels, major:minor:patch/
15:30:19 <kaz> q-
15:30:44 <luca_barbato> mjk: <summary of semver.org>
15:30:46 <mjk> ack mjk
15:30:46 <cris_> +1
15:31:16 <kaz> i|summary|-> https://semver.org/ semver.org
15:32:10 <kaz> s/major:minor:patch/major.minor.patch/
15:33:13 <mjk> q?
15:33:16 <kaz> ack lu
15:34:14 <luca_barbato> lu: semver is easy for us since we are already 1.0 and 2.0, with 1.1 we are backward compatible with 1.0, do we want 1.1.1 with other bugfixes? How much time are we going to devote to it?
15:34:59 <luca_barbato> ege: how we explain to the users?
15:35:18 <luca_barbato> q+
15:35:33 <luca_barbato> ege: also how we maintain compatibility regarding our urls?
15:37:07 <kaz> q+
15:38:09 <dape> q+
15:38:35 <luca_barbato> lu: we can use incremental uris, the uri for v1.1 always picks v1.1.{latest}, if you request v1.1.n you get this, if you as v1 you get v1.{latest}
15:40:25 <luca_barbato> ege: we should make sure the jsonschema is not having breaking changes introduced unwillingly since adding items adds restrictions
15:42:23 <luca_barbato> kaz: We should clarify which are the resources provided now
15:42:59 <luca_barbato> kaz: shall we start from 0.0.1 ?
15:45:06 <luca_barbato> q+
15:48:22 <Ege> ack lu
15:49:09 <kaz> s/0.0.1/1.1.0 for TD 1.1? and use 1.1.1 for the first bug fix?/
15:49:14 <kaz> ack k
15:49:52 <kaz> kaz: also we need to think about how to map the latest/fixed version to the published URI./
15:49:59 <kaz> s|./|.|
15:50:19 <kaz> i|also|scribenick: kaz|
15:50:31 <kaz> scribenick: luca_barbato
15:51:20 <luca_barbato> daniel: For the time being this should be done for TD.next
15:51:35 <kaz> s/being/being,/
15:51:41 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:51:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/20-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:52:29 <luca_barbato> .. for TD1.1 we have the release done, so it is not high priority
15:52:29 <kaz> q+
15:52:29 <kaz> s/TD1.1/TD 1.1/
15:52:29 <dape> ack dape
15:52:29 <luca_barbato> .. hopefully we might not need that in 1.1
15:52:41 <kaz> ack k
15:53:56 <kaz> kaz: agree
15:54:14 <luca_barbato> ege: in case we have to do bugfixes, we will have to decide if to do that in-place or make a patch version as 1.1.1
15:54:50 <luca_barbato> ege: for TM.html and svg I'd do that in-place
15:54:56 <kaz> s/agree/agree, so suggested we think about how to deal with bug fixes for 1.1 specs and big changes for 2.0 specs separately./
15:55:00 <kaz> i/agree/scribenick: kaz/
15:55:09 <kaz> i/in case/scribenick: luca_barbato/
15:55:13 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:55:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/20-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:56:11 <kaz> q?
15:56:57 <luca_barbato> ege: I'll open an issue to track this
15:57:27 <luca_barbato> topic: Specific Bindings Templates
15:58:16 <luca_barbato> ege: no new PRs beside what we discussed in the previous call
15:58:49 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/329 PR 329 - Modbus introduction improvement
15:59:09 <luca_barbato> topic: TD
15:59:47 <luca_barbato> ege: I tagged REC 1.1
15:59:55 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/releases/tag/REC1.1
16:00:17 <kaz> i/I tagged/subtopic: Repo snapshot for REC 1.1/
16:00:42 <kaz> subtopic: Merged folder deletion PRs
16:01:05 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1943 PR 1943 - Delete images directory
16:01:23 <luca_barbato> ege: I merged the PRs that remove unused directories
16:01:38 <kaz> i|merged|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1942 PR 1942 - Delete test-bed directory|
16:01:45 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:01:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/20-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:01:56 <kaz> subtopic: Work items
16:02:07 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/planning/ThingDescription/work-items.md work-items.md
16:02:43 <mjk> scribenick: mjk
16:03:09 <kaz> q+
16:03:25 <kaz> ack k
16:03:39 <kaz> (quickly skimmed)
16:03:52 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1946
16:03:53 <mjk> topic: PR #1946
16:04:14 <kaz> s|https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1946||
16:04:25 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1946 PR 1946 - SVGs in editor's draft instead of pngs
16:05:14 <mjk> ege: this replaces PNG files with SVG files
16:05:35 <mjk> ... any objections to merging?
16:05:46 <mjk> ... merged
16:05:58 <kaz> q+
16:06:38 <mjk> kaz: the architecture spec used the PNG as a fallback
16:06:43 <kaz> ack k
16:06:45 <dape> q+
16:06:48 <mjk> ... do we want to do this?
16:07:40 <mjk> ege: our use case is different, the PNGs are not auto-generated
16:07:52 <kaz> s/this?/this? I myself am OK with SVG only, though./
16:08:23 <mjk> dape: best case is we could use SVG only
16:09:11 <kaz> topic: PR 1945
16:09:23 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1945 PR 1945 - Assertion id alignment
16:09:46 <mjk> subtopic: PR#1945   - align assertion title syntax
16:10:03 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:10:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/20-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:10:10 <mjk> ege: manually changed all the entries to align them.
16:11:33 <mjk> ... this is a one time change and will impact some of the tooling
16:11:35 <kaz> q+
16:11:38 <kaz> ack d
16:11:42 <mjk> ... any comments or concerns?
16:12:14 <mjk> kaz: is the same style used in all of our specifications?
16:12:29 <mjk> s/in/for
16:12:35 <kaz> i|manually|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/blob/main/testing/assertions.csv wot-thing-description/testing/assertions.csv|
16:13:02 <kaz> s/specifications/specifications (TD, Discovery and Architecture)/
16:13:05 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:13:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/20-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:13:41 <kaz> s/topic: PR #1946/subtopic: PR #1946/
16:13:44 <mjk> ege: there are similar patterns in the assertions for the other specs
16:13:57 <kaz> s/topic: PR 1945/subtopic: PR #1945/
16:15:24 <mjk> kaz: we need a unified style for the 2.0 publications
16:15:53 <mjk> ege: any objections or comments?
16:16:27 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:16:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/20-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:17:24 <kaz> s|subtopic: PR#1945   - align assertion title syntax||
16:17:26 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:17:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/20-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:18:00 <mjk> ege: convert PR #1946 to draft
16:18:10 <mjk> subtopic: PR #1926
16:18:33 <kaz> q+
16:18:45 <mjk> ege: does anyone have a preference on formatting standards?
16:19:02 <mjk> kaz: what kind of style and which documents?
16:19:13 <kaz> i|does|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1926 Issue 1926 - Aligning formatting accross files|
16:19:22 <kaz> s/PR #1926/Issue #1926
16:19:24 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:19:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/20-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:21:08 <dape> q+
16:21:18 <mjk> ege: there are differences in whitespace that make diffs hard to work with
16:21:49 <mjk> ... propose a standard editor config file
16:22:06 <cris_> q+
16:22:07 <mjk> kaz: we can use html tidy
16:22:12 <kaz> ack k
16:23:34 <mjk> dape: people are using other tools, so maybe we should implement CI checking
16:23:54 <dape> ack dape
16:24:06 <kaz> ack d
16:24:17 <mjk> q?
16:24:30 <kaz> s/other tools/different tools/
16:25:23 <kaz> q+
16:26:19 <mjk> cris: there is prettier for diverse file types
16:26:31 <mjk> ... can be used in vscode
16:27:52 <mjk> ... the CI approach could result in a feedback message to the committer to fix the whitespace
16:29:07 <mjk> ... the functions are similar but editorconfig files can't be used in the CI pipeline
16:29:49 <mjk> (see the above link for editorconfig and prettier)
16:29:55 <kaz> ack c
16:30:23 <dape> s/(see the above link for editorconfig and prettier)/(see https://prettier.io/docs/en/configuration.html#editorconfig for editorconfig and prettier)
16:30:27 <mjk> ege: will look at integrating editorconfig and prettier into the CI pipeline
16:30:46 <mjk> kaz: we already have a solution for html files
16:31:14 <kaz> s/solution/solution of htmldiff/
16:31:25 <kaz> s/we al/remember that we al/
16:31:26 <mjk> ege: only the editors need to worry about this
16:32:08 <kaz> ack k
16:32:29 <mjk> topic: project management
16:32:41 <kaz> q+
16:32:52 <mjk> ege: continuing the discussion from last week
16:33:46 <mjk> kaz: is editorconfig only for UNIX file systems?
16:34:04 <kaz> [[
16:34:04 <kaz> charset = utf-8
16:34:05 <kaz> insert_final_newline = true
16:34:05 <kaz> end_of_line = lf
16:34:05 <kaz> indent_style = space
16:34:05 <kaz> indent_size = 2
16:34:07 <kaz> max_line_length = 80
16:34:09 <kaz> ]]
16:34:17 <kaz> on https://prettier.io/docs/en/configuration.html#editorconfig
16:34:27 <mjk> cris: it is an issue
16:34:36 <kaz> s/only //
16:34:45 <mjk> ... but it can be made to work
16:35:09 <Ege> q?
16:35:11 <mjk> ege: is the only issue line endings?
16:35:17 <mjk> cris: yes
16:35:22 <kaz> s/systems?/systems? Remember the W3C server is UNIX-based./
16:35:24 <kaz> ack k
16:35:41 <kaz> subtopic: Project management - revisited
16:36:00 <kaz> i/is editor/subtopic: editorconfig - revisited/
16:36:14 <kaz> @@@ Kaz will fix the subtopic sections later
16:36:43 <mjk> ege: PR  #1944
16:37:25 <mjk> ... overview of workflow
16:37:38 <kaz> q+
16:37:52 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1944 PR 1944 - More concrete project management proposal
16:40:05 <mjk> kaz: W3C strategy has a project management framework defined with specific phases that we should use
16:40:37 <mjk> ... for example, use cases => requirements => gap analysis => spec generation
16:41:25 <kaz> ack k
16:41:27 <mjk> ege: yes, this is the idea
16:41:39 <kaz> i|strat|-> https://github.com/w3c/strategy/projects/2 Strategy Pipeline|
16:42:27 <kaz> s/for example/and for us as the WoT WG, we could define several phases for spec generation, foe example/
16:42:52 <mjk> cege: this is too complex
16:42:57 <kaz> s/spec generation/spec generation => testing/
16:43:15 <mjk> s/cege/ege/
16:43:37 <mjk> cris: this is better than nothing
16:44:25 <kaz> i|yes|kaz: it seems the proposal in PR 1944 is focusing on the "spec generation" phase, but we might want to think about a broader workflow like above./
16:44:31 <mjk> mjk: it's a good starting place
16:44:34 <kaz> s|above./|above.|
16:44:49 <kaz> i|it seems|scribenick: kaz|
16:44:58 <mjk> cris: we can improve later while we go along
16:45:04 <kaz> i|yes, this is|scribenick: mjk|
16:45:12 <mjk> ... but we should capture this now
16:45:14 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:45:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/20-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:45:56 <mjk> ege: merged PR #1944
16:46:00 <kaz> s/topic: project management/subtopic: project management/
16:46:04 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:46:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/20-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:46:51 <mjk> topic: use case analysis
16:47:24 <mjk> ege: not sure about how to do this, so reviewing how we did it in the past
16:49:26 <kaz> q+
16:49:39 <mjk> ... using synchronous action interaction method as an example, the use case involves adding a keyword and develops an underlying robot behavior use case
16:51:20 <mjk> ... so there is a feature ("synchronous" keyword) and the underlying use case that sets the requirement
16:51:34 <mjk> kaz: are we discussing topic 10 or #11
16:51:48 <mjk> ege: the discussion includes both
16:53:31 <mjk> ege: this is one example of how we developed features from use cases in the past
16:54:02 <mjk> kaz: is this for creating a use case?
16:54:18 <mjk> ege: this is how a use case can justify a feature
16:54:46 <mjk> kaz: this isn't a good example for a use case process
16:55:17 <mjk> ege: no, this just an example how we did it in the past, not a proposal
16:57:14 <mjk> ege: some other examples from past use case work show use cases that are difficult to extract requirements from
16:58:02 <kaz> q+
16:58:42 <mjk> ... the use cases need to be much more specific in order to derive requirements from them
16:59:26 <mjk> kaz: the problem is caused by the use case document itself. Smart city is too big a topic
17:00:06 <mjk> ... there could be multiple topics that aggregate to the higher level topic
17:00:32 <mjk> ege: even a subtopic like traffic control is too big
17:01:38 <mjk> ege: this is why we need to restart the use case discussions as soon as possible and decompose some of these to the right level of granularity
17:01:55 <mjk> ege: we should get use cases that are not yet met by WoT
17:02:37 <mjk> kaz: we should clarify which level of description is appropriate for driving the next specification
17:03:07 <mjk> kaz: go beyond use cases to include scenarios
17:03:17 <cris_> q+
17:03:23 <kaz> ack k
17:03:32 <mjk> ... we should not handle everything here but concentrate on the most important pieces
17:03:58 <mjk> ege: we could filter everything that doesn't have a gap analysis
17:04:58 <mjk> cris: use cases make sense to understand but user stories are closer to what we need to derive feature requests
17:05:28 <kaz> q?
17:05:54 <kaz> q+
17:06:34 <mjk> cris: the framing of user stories is easy to apply, where the user is a developer using TDs
17:08:00 <kaz> ack c
17:08:08 <mjk> s/to understand/to understand the overall picture/
17:08:47 <mjk> kaz: we need to think about how to extract requirements from use case descriptions
17:09:22 <mjk> instead of thinking about each use case one by one we need to have use case grouping
17:09:38 <kaz> s/instead/... instead/
17:09:45 <kaz> ack k
17:10:38 <mjk> ege: ajourned
17:11:03 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:11:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/20-wot-td-minutes.html kaz