IRC log of css on 2023-12-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:57:17 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/12/20-css-irc
16:57:21 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:57:22 [Zakim]
Meeting: Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) Working Group Teleconference
16:58:39 [PaulG]
present+
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16:59:39 [gtalbot]
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17:00:50 [dholbert]
present+
17:00:51 [dbaron]
Present+
17:00:54 [Rossen_]
present+
17:01:14 [chrishtr]
present+
17:01:39 [jfkthame]
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17:01:41 [flackr]
present+
17:01:46 [jfkthame]
present+
17:01:48 [rachelandrew]
present+
17:01:59 [miriam]
present+
17:02:19 [chris]
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17:02:24 [chris]
present+
17:02:35 [changseok]
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17:02:46 [bramus]
present+
17:03:15 [YehonatanDaniv]
present+
17:03:56 [TabAtkins]
present+
17:04:09 [schenney]
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17:04:17 [florian]
present+
17:04:40 [github-bot]
Topic: [css-color-hdr] Add mechanism to query HDR headroom
17:04:41 [astearns]
github-bot: take up https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9306
17:04:41 [github-bot]
astearns, ignoring request to take up https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9306 which is already the current github URL
17:04:46 [bts]
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17:05:40 [changseok]
present+
17:07:39 [lea]
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17:08:23 [pal]
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17:08:24 [frances__]
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17:08:36 [frances__]
<@frances_> rossen: let's start with the first few issues [11:03] <@frances_> pierre: present background behind issues and areas to collaborate [11:03] <@frances_> rossen: I will try and help you [11:04] <@frances_> pierre: sounds great, might not solve in 10 minutes, maybe solve later [11:05] <@frances_> pierre: presentation on adding HDR imagery to html canvas for css requirements [11:05] <@frances_> pierre: highlight some work on color on web[CUT]
17:08:36 [chris]
scribenick: frances
17:08:51 [dholbert]
scribenick: frances__
17:08:54 [keithamus]
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17:08:55 [plinss]
present+
17:09:04 [keithamus]
present+
17:09:07 [bradk]
present+
17:09:22 [bts]
present+
17:09:48 [frances__]
pierre: so far the web has standard images. effort to bring to both tv and movies, pcs, higher dynamic range images, much broader range of lumniscence, darker and brighter than png images used to
17:10:20 [frances__]
pierre: in order to enable this, higher pixel beyond 8 bits beyond power law gamma transfer function, much effort done in the past decade
17:10:27 [fantasai]
[pal expains SDR - standard images, whose ranges 0-100 nits, the range of luminance in a standard laptop]
17:10:35 [frances__]
on streaming services, blue ray, and cinema, want to bring to pcs
17:11:11 [frances__]
pal: web community group has been bringing high range images on html canvas. web gpu and so forth
17:11:26 [frances__]
pal: straw man proposed to add HDR imagery through a series of steps
17:11:31 [lea]
present+
17:11:35 [dbaron]
s/web community group/color on the web community group/
17:12:00 [frances__]
pal: add series of 8 bit color per pixel, assist with mapping to displace that might not be high dynamic range, add api
17:12:17 [fantasai]
[Slide: add HDR colorspaces to Canvas; add higher bit depth to Canvas etc. ; add image color volumne info to Canvas ; add display color volumn info query ; recommendations for mapping to/from HDR ]
17:12:25 [vmpstr]
present+
17:12:55 [frances__]
pal: render on displays that might not have required/narrow and render HDR images, welcome feedback
17:13:03 [frances__]
pal: pause for questions
17:13:14 [frances__]
rossen: suggests to keep going
17:13:25 [chrishtr]
q+
17:13:39 [frances__]
pal: HDR colorspaces fulfill two objectives: mapping between pixel values and emitted light
17:14:03 [gtalbot]
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17:14:09 [frances__]
pal: also reference viewing environment (ambient light and reference display)
17:14:21 [chrishtr]
q-
17:14:46 [frances__]
pal: ITU-R standard recommendation bt.2100 built on and recommends three colorspaces
17:15:15 [chrishtr]
q+
17:15:27 [frances__]
pal: uses hlg transfer function, uses pq transfer function, and linear light where rib corresponds to reference white (1,1,1)
17:15:30 [chris]
q+
17:15:45 [emeyer]
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17:15:57 [frances__]
pal: same color primaries and reference viewing environment, add support to the three areas
17:16:03 [bkardell_]
present+
17:16:06 [chrishtr]
q-
17:16:09 [emeyer]
present+
17:16:25 [frances__]
pal: issue is high dynamic range image for narrow range image display
17:16:38 [bradk]
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17:16:55 [frances__]
pal: should a single algorithm be mandated or recommended?
17:17:00 [fantasai]
i/pal: issue is/pal: Request is for CSS to add these three color spaces, as we are planning to add also to Canvas
17:17:05 [frances__]
pal: how should a single algorithm be selected?
17:17:20 [frances__]
pal: the cg has been considering a call for proposals
17:17:47 [frances__]
pal: what is the capabilities of the display for minimum and maximum display luminance and of reference white?
17:18:13 [frances__]
pal: possiblility to increase fingerprinting surfs and introduces privacy concerns
17:18:32 [frances__]
rossen: focus the conversation
17:18:51 [frances__]
rossen: what is the path forward?
17:18:57 [PaulG]
q+
17:18:57 [Rossen_]
ack chrishtr
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17:19:11 [fantasai]
i/pal: what is/pal: Also some applications might want to provide their own mapping, so would need some information from the UA
17:19:11 [frances__]
chris: what are the colorspaces suggesting for canvas, are they all available in css ideally?
17:19:20 [frances__]
rossen: confirms, yes would be ideal
17:19:42 [dbaron]
I'm curious what "add a color space to CSS" means -- add it as part of mechanism for specifying colors, add the ability to use it as a working color space for compositing, other things?
17:19:50 [frances__]
chris: on other issue, there is already an unofficial draft created. waiting for interest shown
17:20:26 [frances__]
chris: brought down to simple high level proposed resolution, and propose to work on the draft together
17:20:36 [schenney]
The trick is figuring out a HDR->SDR mapping that works when color information is spread across lots of elements (as opposed to a single image)
17:20:59 [Rossen_]
ack chrishtr
17:21:01 [Rossen_]
ack chris
17:21:03 [Rossen_]
ack PaulG
17:21:05 [dbaron]
https://drafts.csswg.org/css-color-hdr/
17:21:34 [chris]
Paul, please have a look at https://drafts.csswg.org/css-color-hdr/#a11y
17:21:41 [frances__]
paulg : has question and concern on samsung browser full canvas interface. would be excited. Is there a lag time between canvas and web implementation?
17:21:43 [chris]
q+
17:21:59 [frances__]
paulg: a hack with no script and can leave alot of people out on accessibility
17:22:24 [frances__]
paulg: what coordination to do with color coordinations to accommodate for higher luminance?
17:22:29 [Rossen_]
ack chris
17:22:41 [fantasai]
s/a hack with no script and/if these are only available for Canvas, devs might use Canvas rather than Web in the interim, which/
17:22:44 [pal]
q+
17:22:45 [frances__]
chris lilley: already have accessibility considerations on the draft
17:22:53 [florian]
q+ to ask if these 3 color spaces achieve different things, or if they are different ways to achieve the same thing
17:23:29 [frances__]
rossen: let's answer high level bit to continue working on in csswg, and move onto other issues
17:23:34 [Rossen_]
ack pal
17:23:56 [Rossen_]
Zakim, close queue
17:23:56 [Zakim]
ok, Rossen_, the speaker queue is closed
17:24:02 [frances__]
pal: thank group for opportunity, focus on the colors
17:24:05 [Rossen_]
ack florian
17:24:05 [Zakim]
florian, you wanted to ask if these 3 color spaces achieve different things, or if they are different ways to achieve the same thing
17:24:10 [chris]
Proposed Resolution: CSS WG adopts the CSS Color HDR draft as a work item
17:24:43 [frances__]
florian: question: out of 3 color spaces, bigger range?
17:24:57 [frances__]
chris lilley: yes, better use cases
17:25:08 [chrishtr]
sgtm
17:25:16 [frances__]
rossen: objections?
17:25:30 [fantasai]
s/bigger range/are they different ways of achieving the same thing that we expect one to win, or do we need all three/
17:25:45 [fantasai]
s/yes, better use cases/we need all three, they have different use cases/
17:25:49 [emilio]
present+
17:26:06 [chris]
Resolution: CSS WG adopts the CSS Color HDR draft as a work item
17:26:26 [frances__]
RESOLUTION adopt the CSS Color HDR draft as a work item
17:26:29 [vitorroriz]
present+
17:26:42 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: CSS WG adopts the CSS Color HDR draft as a work item
17:26:42 [bradk]
Rossen_: is that Hawai’i?
17:26:49 [frances__]
rossen: archive is in the IRC
17:27:30 [frances__]
rossen: next-issue #9511
17:27:39 [Rossen_]
github-bot: take up https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9511#issuecomment-1839208142
17:27:39 [github-bot]
Topic: [css-text][text-spacing] Visual regressions of line-start at portals and news sites
17:27:39 [github-bot]
OK, I'll post this discussion to https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9511.
17:28:04 [Rossen_]
Zakim, open queue
17:28:04 [Zakim]
ok, Rossen_, the speaker queue is open
17:28:15 [frances__]
chris harrelson: css property is text-spacing trim
17:28:28 [fantasai]
spec -> https://www.w3.org/TR/css-text-4/#text-spacing-trim-property
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17:28:33 [frances__]
christ: current spec causes compatibility issues in japanese sites
17:28:51 [florian]
q+
17:29:13 [frances__]
chris h: existing behavior has use cases, make the default what is currently case, add keywords, current comment is out of date, add normal
17:29:37 [frances__]
chris h: second discussion for additional keywords to add, propose to segment, discuss, and resolve
17:29:46 [Rossen_]
ack florian
17:30:26 [frances__]
florian: thinks there's a shortcut, different from written, identical to current behavior and adjacent would be better than current with no combat problems of current draft, and would support
17:31:13 [frances__]
florian: keep space in start, and trim adjacent, cohesive investigation
17:31:32 [bradk]
Rossen_: nice. I recognized the bird sounds from when I was in Maui last month. 👍
17:31:36 [frances__]
chris h: thank you for clarifying
17:31:38 [fantasai]
florian: Current behavior is space-all, we're trying to choose an initial value that's the intersection of what's better and what's Web-compatible
17:31:41 [vitorroriz]
q+ (can be by text): so "normal" would be space-all ?
17:31:46 [frances__]
rossen: request for other feedback
17:31:49 [emilio]
looks sensible to me at a glance
17:32:07 [fantasai]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9511#issuecomment-1853187016
17:32:12 [astearns]
q+ vitorroriz
17:32:24 [frances__]
fantasai: proposal to add new value normal to represent initial value with space start trim adjacent and allow end, table of what happens at start edge, end edge, and between
17:33:20 [frances__]
fantasai: current spec says that we would use space first as start and trim adjacent edge, not web compatible. Proposal to introduce normal keyword, remember initial value and possibly tweak it.
17:33:43 [Rossen_]
ack vitorroriz
17:33:50 [frances__]
vitor: normal value wouldn't be equivalent to space? fantasai: no
17:34:28 [frances__]
fantasai: would be safest option, and possibly improve. from investigation main issues are on the start edges have not come up with problems of trim adjacent behavior at the end
17:34:33 [fantasai]
s/space/space-all/
17:34:34 [astearns]
s/Rossen_: nice. I recognized the bird sounds from when I was in Maui last month. 👍//
17:34:47 [frances__]
rossen: sibling property of auto-space possibly something equivalent
17:34:55 [astearns]
s/Rossen_: is that Hawai’i?//
17:35:12 [frances__]
florian: with each issue on GitHub, everyone feels pretty aligned
17:35:22 [fantasai]
PROPOSED: Initial value of text-spacing is 'normal' representing the 'space-start trim-adjacent allow-end' behavior
17:35:25 [frances__]
rossen: summarize ask for proposed path forward?
17:35:41 [florian]
s/with each issue/within issue
17:35:45 [frances__]
florian: has the proposed resolution
17:36:00 [frances__]
rossen: any additional comments to proposed resolution?
17:36:30 [fantasai]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9511#issuecomment-1862787959
17:36:45 [fantasai]
Value syntax would be: normal | trim-start | space-first | trim-auto | space-all | trim-all | auto
17:36:53 [frances__]
florian: what do we do with other values? auto is already in spec, would be how to rebalance rest set of values
17:37:06 [fantasai]
Current syntax is: space-all | trim-auto | [ allow-end || space-first ] | trim-all | auto
17:37:54 [frances__]
florian: removes ability to combine space first with the name of the value at the start end, trim adjacent in the middle, removes trim end variant of space first
17:38:06 [frances__]
florian: most were not useful in implementation in browsers
17:38:20 [frances__]
rossen: ask for opinions?
17:38:23 [vitorroriz]
q+
17:38:27 [frances__]
fantasai: supports change
17:38:38 [Rossen_]
ack vitorroriz
17:38:42 [frances__]
vitor: auto value will be there?
17:38:51 [frances__]
fantasai: yes
17:39:18 [frances__]
florian: auto matches operating systems native behavior. default would be normal
17:39:47 [frances__]
fantasai: proposal to rename auto to match-platform to be more obvious
17:39:57 [frances__]
rossen: objections? none, resolved
17:39:59 [fantasai]
s/proposal to/we could also/
17:40:18 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Accept Murakami's proposal to simplify to text-spacing: normal | trim-start | space-first | trim-auto | space-all | trim-all | auto
17:40:34 [bradk]
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17:40:35 [frances__]
RESOLVED: remap property value space for text-spacing
17:41:31 [astearns]
github-bot: take up https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9639
17:41:32 [github-bot]
Topic: [css-view-transitions-1] Disallow the name `auto` as `view-transition-name`
17:41:32 [github-bot]
OK, I'll post this discussion to https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9639.
17:41:37 [noamr]
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17:43:19 [frances__]
bramus: right now the property transition view name accepts custom in #8319, might be feasible to add alternate shorthand name, use value of auto in that case
17:43:39 [fantasai]
bramus: this would create a conflict with view-transition-name, so propose to disallow auto
17:43:45 [bramus]
s/custom/custom-ident
17:43:47 [frances__]
RESOLUTION: disallow auto for view transitions
17:43:54 [fantasai]
s/RESOLUTION/RESOLVED/
17:44:06 [fantasai]
s/view transitions/view-transition-name/
17:44:14 [frances__]
RESOLUTION: disallow auto for view-transitions-name/view-transitions
17:44:37 [frances__]
rossen: keep going to next issue
17:44:42 [github-bot]
Topic: [css-scoping] Always serialise the implicit `:scope` ?
17:44:51 [frances__]
rossen: always serialize implicit scope?
17:45:06 [bramus]
s/accepts custom/accepts auto.
17:45:16 [TabAtkins]
q+
17:45:32 [frances__]
matthieu d: in css copying spec all rules in the spec have a : scot selector, nesting serialize implicit selector, value context related to selector
17:45:42 [Rossen_]
ack TabAtkins
17:46:01 [emilio]
q+
17:46:07 [Rossen_]
ack emilio
17:46:09 [frances__]
tabatkins: more transportable to other spots for javascript copying and pasting
17:46:38 [miriam]
q+
17:46:39 [frances__]
emilio: consistent for @ scope or nested inside, still seems fine
17:46:52 [Rossen_]
ack miriam
17:47:07 [frances__]
miriam: question, what implications does this have for the behavior or just internal?
17:47:28 [frances__]
matthieu d: no implication, only for serialization, one value for specificity, already counted
17:47:59 [frances__]
miriam: some questions from roman about nesting and scope and how the implicit scope works in nested context
17:48:35 [frances__]
matthieu d: serializing when there is an implicit scope
17:48:45 [frances__]
rossen: any other questions/concerns?
17:48:55 [frances__]
rossen: any objections?
17:49:25 [frances__]
PROPOSAL: serialize implicit scope pseudoclass in rule selectors
17:49:47 [frances__]
RESOLUTION: serialize implicit scope pseudoclass in rule selectors
17:49:59 [Rossen_]
github-bot: take up https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/626#issuecomment-1800254442
17:49:59 [github-bot]
Topic: [css-transitions] Transition to height (or width) "auto"
17:49:59 [github-bot]
OK, I'll post this discussion to https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/626.
17:51:37 [fantasai]
scribe+
17:52:14 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: People have been asking for transition height 0 - auto since beginning of transitions
17:52:19 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: also have use cases for other definite heights
17:52:36 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Other one is, not just transitioning from auto, but any of the intrisinc keywords
17:52:47 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: to/from zero to any other value is commonly desired, for good shuttering animations
17:52:57 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: the most obvious solution is to let people use intrinsic sizing keywords in calc()
17:53:03 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: this isn't great, I explain why in issue, short version is
17:53:16 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: several layout algorithms branch based on exactly which intrinsic sizing behavior being invoked
17:53:25 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: What's min-content/2 vs fit-content/2
17:53:35 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: could affect element and/or its neighbors different
17:53:49 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: We also have other behavior, e.g. cyclic percentages, which can have intrinsic behavior
17:54:11 [bts]
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17:54:14 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: You can interpolate among percentages, but if you interpolate 100% to 0 at 50% you'd still have auto to 0
17:54:19 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: creates a jump
17:54:23 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Propose to introduce a new function
17:54:32 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: first arg is an intrinsic size calculation
17:54:40 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: second arg is a calculation
17:54:43 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: it can accept a size keyword
17:54:56 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: this forces relying on a single intrinsic size
17:55:03 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: and also means you can transition cyclic percentages
17:55:14 [duga]
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17:55:18 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Also, by having as a separate function, this gives us a hook for activating better transition behavior automaticall
17:55:26 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: right now, min-content to 100px, it is discrete transition behavior
17:55:38 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: having a new function on one end allows us to automatically upgrade both sides to the function
17:55:50 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Can go over more details if ppl have questions, but in general I think this is the right way to go
17:55:58 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: would like to introduce to values-5
17:55:58 [lea]
q+
17:56:03 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: dbaron wants to Intent to Experiment
17:56:13 [Rossen_]
ack lea
17:56:14 [dbaron]
Intent to Prototype, not intent to Experiment :-)
17:56:20 [fantasai]
lea: To make sure I understand, reason of new function is so that there's only one intrinsic sizing keyword and not multiple?
17:56:24 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: that's the main one, a few other reasons
17:56:39 [fantasai]
lea: would it be possible to use regular calc() and just apply that restriction?
17:56:47 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: You have non-keyword intrinsic size things, like cyclic percentage
17:56:50 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: you couldn't d othose
17:56:53 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: but if we ignore that case
17:56:58 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: we could, but it makes for more difficult debugging
17:57:03 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: you have to know that the restriction exists
17:57:15 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: it's possible to learn, just seems a step further than I would usually want to require for authors
17:57:31 [fantasai]
lea: If we use calc(), there's a clear path to relaxing restrictions over time
17:57:56 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: I doubt the problems I mention are solveable. The branching on layout algorithms is important
17:57:59 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: not likely to change
17:58:06 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: so don't think there's a path to mixing in calc() ever
17:58:20 [fantasai]
lea: evolution is only one reason, and often group does the impossible later down the line
17:58:38 [fantasai]
lea: authors might not hit the restriction, not common in use cases
17:58:44 [fantasai]
lea: have to learn a new function
17:58:48 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: have to pay a learnability tax
17:58:55 [bradk]
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17:58:57 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: calc-size() solving other problems better seems worth it to me
17:59:07 [Rossen_]
ack dbaron
17:59:12 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: folding it into calc() has those problems, and also a different type of learnability hit
17:59:30 [fantasai]
dbaron: anotehr case is opt-in to new behavior, the function provides this. If we use calc, we need a separate switch.
17:59:59 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: My first impression is that it does make sense to do this as a separate fucntion, for the reasons metnioned
18:00:09 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: Like to and from 0, if you're just 0 you'll lose the branching behavior
18:00:34 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: This provides a way where even if the calc evaluates to zeor, you're still hanging onto the fact that this is trying to do the intrinsic sizing thing and layout algos will be consistent
18:00:53 [fantasai]
Rossen_: any other comments?
18:01:16 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: proposed resolution is add calc-size() to css-values-5 and work out details there
18:01:24 [fantasai]
Rossen_: objections?
18:01:33 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Add calc-size() to css-values-5 and work out details there
18:01:45 [fantasai]
Topic: End
18:01:59 [fantasai]
Rossen_: reminder to add yourself to F2F wiki
18:02:08 [bradk]
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18:02:15 [fantasai]
-> https://wiki.csswg.org/planning/mountain-view-2024
18:02:22 [fantasai]
Rossen_: That's it for 2023! See you in 2024
18:02:34 [emeyer]
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18:02:53 [Rossen_]
Zakim, end meeting
18:02:53 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been PaulG, dholbert, dbaron, Rossen_, chrishtr, flackr, jfkthame, rachelandrew, miriam, chris, bramus, YehonatanDaniv, TabAtkins, florian,
18:02:57 [Zakim]
... changseok, plinss, keithamus, bradk, bts, lea, vmpstr, bkardell_, emeyer, emilio, vitorroriz
18:02:57 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
18:02:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/20-css-minutes.html Zakim
18:03:05 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, Rossen_; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
18:03:05 [Zakim]
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