12:58:53 RRSAgent has joined #i18n 12:58:58 logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/12/19-i18n-irc 12:59:02 Meeting: I18N ⇔ CSS 12:59:09 rrsagent, make log public 12:59:14 present+ 12:59:21 scribe: xfq_ 12:59:33 rrsagent, make minutes 12:59:34 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/19-i18n-minutes.html xfq_ 13:01:54 florian: I started looking into the TTML issue that you put on the agenda 13:02:25 florian: if you could walk me through a little bit that would help 13:02:36 ... I haven't read the whole thing yet at the moment 13:03:53 r12a has joined #i18n 13:05:01 present+ r12a, atsushi 13:05:53 [Debugging Zoom/Calendar problems] 13:07:55 regrets: fantasai 13:08:29 Topic: Interaction between tts:writingMode and tts:direction on paragraph element. 13:08:40 https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/1211 13:08:40 https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/1211 -> Issue 1211 Interaction between tts:writingMode and tts:direction on paragraph element. (by palemieux) [i18n-tracker] 13:08:58 atsushi: there seems to be some compat issues between TTML and CSS 13:09:53 ... there was some objection about conversion to the CSS model 13:10:15 ... in one sense, TTML uses CSS, and in another it doesn't really 13:10:23 ... because if you read the normative text of the spec 13:10:30 ... it says CSS is just a hint 13:10:43 s/... in one sense, TTML uses CSS, and in another it doesn't really/florian: in one sense, TTML uses CSS, and in another it doesn't really 13:11:00 florian: which means the model isn't defined 13:11:15 ... you can sort of do anything you want and it's still compliant 13:11:27 ... I don't know if the same thing is true for XSL 13:11:47 ... I wonder if there is a way to detect that you're using CSS-specific syntax 13:11:59 s/it doesn't really/it doesn't really, because it's all normatively treated as a hint, which you don't have to follow rigorously 13:12:10 ... in that case you need to turn off the old model and switch to the CSS model 13:12:38 ... I wasn't necessarily saying this is a separate feature flag 13:12:50 ... why do we have an issue with it now? 13:13:05 ... what is actually the problem we're trying to solve here? 13:13:29 atsushi: I also need to dig out all the discussions 13:14:27 ... I discussed this with TTWG chairs but they need to find some time to look into this 13:15:09 xfq: maybe we can look into this before the next meeting 13:15:18 florian: I'm reasonably familiar with how CSS deals with this 13:15:38 ... I'm not familiar with how XSL does and I'm somewhat confused 13:15:53 atsushi: differences between CSS2 and CSS3 13:16:00 florian: is there a difference here? 13:16:18 ... CSS2 didn't have writing mode, but it did have direction, I think 13:16:39 s/, I think// 13:17:31 florian: we all have some reading to do 13:18:13 Topic: [css-text-4] move "balance | stable | pretty" out of text-wrap 13:18:17 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9102 13:18:18 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9102 -> CLOSED Issue 9102 [css-text-4] move "balance | stable | pretty" out of text-wrap (by frivoal) [css-text-4] [Closed Accepted by CSSWG Resolution] [i18n-tracker] [Needs Testcase (WPT)] 13:18:29 florian: I think there's nothing to do with the spec 13:18:41 ... except Google should implement the thing correctly 13:19:54 ... maybe I could double check if we have enough tests in WPT 13:21:00 xfq: looks good to me 13:21:44 Topic: Action Items 13:21:49 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Acss 13:23:21 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-discuss/issues/11 13:23:22 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-discuss/issues/11 -> Issue 11 Languages / writing systems with 2 line breaking conventions in common use? (by frivoal) 13:23:57 florian: Hangul has 2 different styles of line breaking 13:24:10 ... either syllable based or space based 13:24:13 ... it's fairly unique 13:24:24 ... there's also Ethiopic script, which has both styles 13:24:43 ... the style of keeping words together and breaking at spaces 13:25:14 ... I think Korean is alone in the world 13:25:25 ... and I would like to be sure 13:25:35 ... ideally in your markup the language is tagged 13:26:10 ... but if you're in a user generated content for a discussion, social media, people will type things and they won't be marked up for language 13:26:16 ... because you don't know what they type 13:26:34 ... there is no way in CSS currently to say whether you break at spaces or words 13:26:50 q+ 13:26:59 ... I don't recall that we found another language that is like Korean 13:27:03 ack r 13:27:31 r12a: I think the Ethiopic style that you refer to is an older style, but it isn't a defunct style 13:27:38 ... it's not completely gone 13:29:39 ... you still have plenty of situations where you may encounter text like that 13:29:48 ... or work with text like that 13:30:11 florian: is that because you're dealing with historical text and you want to present them in a historical way? 13:30:27 ... or could there be currently generated content that wants to look like this? 13:30:39 ... would you write this style to Facebook? 13:30:52 ... comment on forums or newpaper comment or Wikipedia 13:31:16 Wikipedia seems to use spaces: https://am.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E1%8B%A8%E1%8A%A3%E1%88%9B%E1%88%AD%E1%8A%9B_%E1%8D%8A%E1%8B%B0%E1%88%8D 13:31:37 r12a: that's the question we should put to Daniel 13:31:44 ... who has written the requirements 13:32:05 ... my impression is that you could find it being written today, but it's not very common 13:32:33 florian: my impression was that it's tied to things like liturgic texts or religious things 13:32:48 ... if your feeling is different, I will trust you over myself 13:32:56 r12a: I'm not 100% certain 13:33:28 action: r12a to contact Daniel and check the Ethiopic word boundary situation 13:33:35 Created -> action #65 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/65 13:34:16 florian: if it turns out it's only Korean I reasonably confident that this can be a trivial addition to CSS 13:34:55 r12a: people might type archaic scripts into emails 13:35:11 ... if they're researching that script and collaborating with other people 13:35:30 florian: @@1 13:35:49 ... if both style is in common use then that's where it gets interesting in my view 13:36:43 Topic: [css-text] Extra spacing between ideographs and non-fullwidth punctuation/symbols 13:36:50 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9479 13:36:50 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9479 -> Issue 9479 [css-text] Extra spacing between ideographs and non-fullwidth punctuation/symbols (by xfq) [css-text-4] [i18n-needs-resolution] [i18n-jlreq] [i18n-clreq] 13:38:31 xfq: there is a proposal in Unicode 13:40:33 florian: we can wait for the discussions in Unicode 13:41:45 Topic: Ruby 13:42:11 florian: still need some time before I can start work on it, maybe in January 13:44:11 https://rubizaidan.jp/ 13:44:31 florian: this group of people who are not about ruby on the web 13:44:38 ... they're about ruby in general 13:44:48 ... it's a foundation for ruby 13:45:14 ... because they think ruby is important for society 13:47:12 florian: I'm still convinced it's the right thing to do 13:47:33 ... we need ruby to be able to read properly when you're a language learner 13:48:38 s/not about ruby on the web/not only about ruby on the web 13:52:47 [Discuss the ruby markup in https://rubizaidan.jp/ ] 13:54:06 florian: the ruby is inserted by JavaScript 13:57:38 r12a: when they're using display: block, they may not know there's a display: ruby-text value 13:57:53 ... we have a ruby markup article since 2016 13:58:04 ... about what we should do 13:58:28 ... we have some educational materials 13:58:35 ... maybe we should make them more visible 13:59:22 ... I keep seeing people trying to make up new names for tabular markup 13:59:37 ... which is annoying because we've been using that for quite a long time 14:00:20 ... I'd like to suggest that if we're doing educational stuff we try to base it on this or develop this further 14:00:34 ... rather than writing something completely different 14:00:56 Topic: AOB 14:01:08 florian: I think our next scheduled meeting is January 16th 14:01:17 ... I'm hoping to have an update by then 14:06:47 rrsagent, make minutes 14:06:48 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/19-i18n-minutes.html xfq_ 14:10:01 xfq_ has joined #i18n 15:41:42 Zakim has left #i18n