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18:56:58 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/12/19-aria-apg-irc
18:56:58 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
18:56:59 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
18:57:19 <Matt_King> MEETING: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
18:57:27 <Matt_King> CHAIR: Jemma
18:57:32 <Matt_King> present+
18:57:43 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make minutes
18:57:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/19-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King
18:58:10 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike has joined #aria-apg
19:01:53 <Jem> Jem has joined #aria-apg
19:04:28 <howard-e> howard-e has joined #aria-apg
19:04:42 <howard-e> present+
19:05:10 <Jem> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/December-19%2C-2023-Agenda
19:05:14 <Jem> present+
19:05:24 <jugglinmike> present+ jugglinmike
19:05:54 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
19:06:06 <jugglinmike> Topic: Setup and Review Agenda
19:06:16 <jugglinmike> Jem: Next meeting: January 9, 2024
19:06:24 <jugglinmike> Topic: Status of Site Updates
19:06:47 <jugglinmike> howard-e: Shawn reported a build error during the deploy today. It doesn't seem related to APG itself, but we're actively investigating
19:07:12 <jugglinmike> howard-e: In the mean time, we shouldn't expect any of the changes from the agenda in the production site
19:07:29 <jugglinmike> howard-e: Alex_Flennikan and I are assisting Shawn today
19:08:41 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If we can't resolve this, then we'll be waiting until January. I've been careful to let folks know that a deployment might not happen until 2024, but in any case, good luck!
19:09:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I wonder if there's a better way to broadcast changes
19:09:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We recently changed some guidance that's been in place for over five years
19:11:42 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I wonder if I should write up a "year in review" for the W3C blog
19:12:11 <jugglinmike> present+ dmontalvo
19:12:18 <jugglinmike> dmontalvo: I think that could work
19:13:36 <Jem> +1 to blog post idea to share the updates
19:14:12 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We got a response to the feedback on naming. I was really happy to see engagement from Patrick on that
19:14:45 <jugglinmike> Jem: I also support sharing an update via a blog post (wherever we might publish it)
19:15:41 <jugglinmike> Topic: Possible select-only combobox bugs
19:15:52 <jugglinmike> Subtopic: [Select-Only Combobox] Clicking the label behaviour · Issue #2859 · w3c/aria-practices
19:16:01 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2859
19:16:08 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This is something I can't test
19:17:07 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike: I can reproduce the reported bug
19:17:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Then I'll label the GitHub issue as a bug
19:18:56 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg
19:19:06 <jugglinmike> present+ jongund
19:19:35 <jongund> present +jongund
19:20:19 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria-apg
19:21:06 <jugglinmike> jongund: I can work on a fix
19:21:53 <jugglinmike> Subtopic: BUG Android+Talkback with simple combobox · Issue #2855 · w3c/aria-practices
19:22:05 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2855
19:25:07 <jugglinmike> Jem: I have an Android device that I can use to verify this report
19:25:46 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Then we'll assign it to you for triage purposes. If you can verify it, then you can add a "bug" label, and we'll meet again to assign someone for a fix
19:25:51 <jugglinmike> Jem: Sounds good
19:26:04 <jugglinmike> Topic: Listbox naming guidance
19:26:15 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2856
19:26:39 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Listbox *does* require a name in ARIA, but in a composite like a combobox, we don't require a name on the element itself.
19:26:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think this is in part an ARIA question, not just an APG question
19:27:36 <jugglinmike> jamesn: I believe there's already an issue for this
19:28:38 <jugglinmike> jamesn: Maybe I'm misremembering, though
19:28:44 <jugglinmike> Jem: Should we transfer this to ARIA, then?
19:29:11 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We might need a separate issue for ARIA
19:30:11 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We got some feedback on this issue, but that was back in the 1.1 combobox days when these things were separate
19:30:49 <jugglinmike> jamesn: Is it easiest to recommend a name on the listbox in this case, even though it's redundant?
19:31:02 <jamesn> previous issue was https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1725
19:33:01 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'll take this issue
19:33:33 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm going to label this as an inaccuracy; I believe this is all editorial
19:34:34 <jugglinmike> Jem: this is related to issue 2290
19:35:14 <jugglinmike> Jem: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2290
19:35:23 <jugglinmike> Topic: Tab and Shift+Tab in treegrid
19:35:32 <dmontalvo> present+ Daniel
19:35:36 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2865
19:36:10 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm kind of unclear about the inconsistency that has cropped up in treegrid where tab sometimes stays in the grid and other times it does not
19:36:16 <jamesn> q+
19:36:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm not really sure what we should do here because we have inconsistencies in what we do between grid and treegrid
19:36:41 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I know there have been a variety of approaches in different implementations
19:37:19 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There's a suggestion in tree grid that tab doesn't have just one tab stop in the grid but stops in every cell in the focused row
19:37:37 <jugglinmike> jamesn: Yes, though sometimes that behavior only occurs following an action on a specific row
19:38:05 <jugglinmike> jamesn: Subtle differences in the way these implementations work can make it tough to specify a single solution here
19:38:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So should the focus go to the row or should it go out of the grid?
19:38:28 <jugglinmike> Jem: I thought that the focus should go out of the row
19:38:33 <jugglinmike> jamesn: I think it should go to the row
19:40:15 <jugglinmike> jamesn: the desired behavior appears to be implemented in the APG's example, so I think this is strictly an editorial problem
19:40:23 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm labeling this as "editorial"
19:41:12 <jugglinmike> jamesn: Focus isn't reversible when you tab out of the treegrid and go back. Focus goes to the row--it doesn't go to the final cell in the row
19:42:36 <jugglinmike> jamesn: I'm actually okay with that non-reversible behavior because (due to the way the web platform works) implementing the reversible behavior would be a significant burden on authors
19:43:10 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I can see it either way. That said, it's not directly related to the issue we're discussing right now
19:43:34 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I will fix it
19:43:54 <jugglinmike> Topic: Escape in disclosure nav menu
19:44:02 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2830
19:44:47 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Escape is all optional
19:45:09 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't like the way we use the word "Dropdown" here. It doesn't seem like the right word in a disclosure because it sort of implies a menu
19:45:41 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Why do we close these on blur in the disclosure? That doesn't seem right
19:46:05 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Going back to our previous discussion, if you tab out, you should be able to tab back to where you were
19:46:43 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This is not a menu, so tabbing is not expected to close. If you have a link, for example, and you tab away from that link, you should be able to tab back to that link. I'd be shocked if I couldn't do that
19:48:06 <jugglinmike> CoryJoseph: What the reporter is describing doesn't seem like a bug according to the definition of Disclosure Menu
19:55:28 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike: I wonder if there's a parallel with mouse users. If I hover out of the dropdown, it remains open. To the extent that the position of my cursor describes my "focus" as a mouse user, then the "close on blur" behavior seems inconsistent for keyboard users
19:56:14 <jugglinmike> jongund: It seems like when one menu opens, it should close the other menus. One reason people use menus is to reduce visual clutter
19:56:32 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That seems reasonable to me, but you have to take an explicit action to expand the other menu
19:59:55 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The issue that was reported appears to be editorial, but I'm having trouble understanding as written
20:00:03 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'll ask for clarification
20:00:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There's also a potential bug here which might be a separate issue, but we'll see about that after we receive clarification
20:01:19 <jugglinmike> Zakim, end the meeting
20:01:20 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Matt_King, howard-e, Jem, jugglinmike, dmontalvo, jongund, Daniel
20:01:22 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
20:01:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/19-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim
20:01:30 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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20:33:36 <jugglinmike> RRSAgent, leave
20:33:36 <RRSAgent> I see no action items