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14:53:17 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/12/18-epub-fxl-irc
14:53:17 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:53:18 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), wendyreid
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14:53:32 <wendyreid> meeting: Fixed Layout Accessibility task force
14:53:34 <wendyreid> date: 2023-12-18
14:53:38 <wendyreid> chair: wendyreid
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14:59:44 <CircularKen> present+
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15:01:42 <sue-neu> present+
15:01:51 <gpellegrino> present+
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15:03:03 <wendyreid> scribe+ gautierchomel
15:03:10 <jgriggs_prh> present+
15:03:20 <gautierchomel> present+
15:03:31 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/2600
15:04:19 <wendyreid> https://cdn.statically.io/gh/w3c/epub-specs/fxl-editorial-3/epub33/fxl-a11y/index.html
15:04:22 <SimonPRH> present+
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15:04:34 <CharlesL> present+
15:05:48 <gautierchomel> wendyreid: this is a pull request with the changes discussed during last call.
15:06:04 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/2600#issuecomment-1860545575
15:06:27 <gautierchomel> wendyreid: about the restructuring, I'm not sure I want to restructure exactly like wcag but i'm open to discussion.
15:06:57 <sue-neu> q+
15:08:18 <gautierchomel> gpellegrino: the structure is fine for me, we may just find a way to add which wcag criteria is not achievable. Maybe a specific section about what's missing.
15:08:19 <wendyreid> ack sue-neu
15:10:43 <gautierchomel> sue-neu: I agree with a need to say clearly what's not achievable even if i understand it may become an excuse to not do more work. Also on another subject idnk if we want to include informations about media when they are non text replacement.
15:12:04 <gautierchomel> wendyreid: one section about limits of fxl accessibility looks a good way to me, so we have one list in one place and not pieces in different places. Maybe a note too about what does not apply to fxl.
15:14:51 <gautierchomel> gpellegrino: my first approach was to have the wcag list and past our texts in there but I like the idea of having wcag vocabulary (perceivable, operable, etc.) in each of our sections.
15:14:52 <gpellegrino> q+
15:15:01 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
15:15:07 <gautierchomel> wendyreid: ok, I'll play with that idea and make a proposal.
15:16:11 <gautierchomel> gpellegrino: thinking this way may help us identify missings in the document.
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15:16:36 <Hadrien> present+
15:17:16 <CircularKen> q+
15:17:41 <wendyreid> ack CircularKen
15:17:44 <gautierchomel> wendyreid: most of the discussions we had where about HTML, but we know that fxl can be SVG or even Image only.
15:19:45 <gautierchomel> CircularKen: sorry, i'm returning to the precedent discussion, structuring like wcag seems to me far away from publishers vocabulary, hard to read and advise, it's inaccessible language to me, I would prefer to stick with the actual structure wich i find much more understandable from a publisher point of view.
15:20:24 <gautierchomel> q+
15:20:28 <wendyreid> ack gautierchomel
15:20:34 <wendyreid> scribe+
15:21:30 <wendyreid> gautierchomel: I'm wondering if one way we could think about would be to start with how the requirements translate into accessibility metadata, how they would appear on a bookseller's site
15:21:38 <wendyreid> ... it might be part of the discussion
15:22:08 <wendyreid> ... why are we talking about navigation? This is how it translates to metadata and user needs
15:23:35 <wendyreid> q?
15:24:07 <gpellegrino> q+
15:24:12 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
15:24:17 <gautierchomel> wendyreid: ok, thanks for those additions. Let's talk about SVG and Image based contents.
15:26:43 <CircularKen> q+
15:26:50 <wendyreid> ack CircularKen
15:27:06 <CharlesL> +1 to adding a note about images in spine not being accessible.
15:27:11 <Hadrien> q+
15:27:12 <gautierchomel> gpellegrino: I know that SVG can be made accessible the same way as HTML, with aria tags, etc. Maybe we can just say that what we are saying applies to SVG and HTML. Images in spine, we can add a big note saying it is very limited in accessibility.
15:27:23 <gautierchomel> gpellegrino: maybe a word about fallback too.
15:27:32 <gpellegrino> q+
15:27:54 <gautierchomel> CircularKen: SVG is a mystery to me, who does that? and how?
15:28:08 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
15:28:13 <gautierchomel> SimonPRH: we did that at PRH :)
15:30:46 <gautierchomel> Hadrien: I've seen manga or comics where the draw is a bimap in svg and the bubble text are as SVG and a bit of everything. The reality is that larges collections exist this way. Eventually not displayed in epub reading system but in webviews or content specific RS.
15:31:20 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
15:31:54 <CircularKen> @gautier Simon said at PRH it was only a image format as part of a page e.g. a logo. not used for page layout
15:32:31 <gautierchomel> gpellegrino: I also see SVG fxl from PDF conversion workflows.
15:32:56 <Hadrien> q+
15:32:59 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
15:33:15 <CircularKen> q+
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15:33:20 <wendyreid> ack CircularKen
15:34:06 <Hadrien> q+
15:34:43 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
15:34:45 <CharlesL> q+
15:35:54 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
15:36:28 <gautierchomel> Hadrien: maybe it's an issue ti diuscuss in community Group,
15:37:02 <jgriggs_prh> q+
15:37:34 <wendyreid> ack jgriggs_prh
15:38:34 <gautierchomel> jgriggs_prh: we used svg for text layout like in children books. it could be usefull for publishers to have some usecases axplored.
15:38:35 <sue-neu> q+
15:38:39 <wendyreid> ack sue-neu
15:39:11 <gpellegrino> q+
15:39:44 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
15:40:26 <gautierchomel> sue-neu: thinking about the public, for publishers this document is very technical.
15:41:47 <gautierchomel> gpellegrino: I think we need a very technical start (this document) to be able to do a simplified version later. This document is good to be complex, as it helps us find a technical consensus.
15:42:32 <SimonPRH> q+
15:42:39 <wendyreid> ack SimonPRH
15:43:00 <gautierchomel> wendyreid: I would like to make it more readable but yes the subject is technic.
15:43:41 <DRogers_> q+
15:43:58 <wendyreid> ack DRogers_
15:44:08 <gautierchomel> SimonPRH: vulgarisation will have to be done for publishers who don't have technical teams.
15:45:36 <gautierchomel> wendyreid: the word "publishers" is a very large umbrella, with large diversity of profiles.
15:47:12 <gautierchomel> DRogers_: As i have a background of webdesigner, I remember the browser war and to me our suggestions must be valid for RS to be of use.
15:47:19 <Hadrien> q+
15:47:54 <gautierchomel> wendyreid: RS are mainly build upon browser engines.
15:49:22 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
15:51:25 <gautierchomel> Hadrien: for comics, in japan and corea, digital sale are superiors to print sales. They use RS not based on browser engines. We shall extend our view to the whole world.
15:52:36 <CircularKen> q+
15:52:40 <wendyreid> ack CircularKen
15:53:39 <gpellegrino> q+
15:53:41 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
15:53:50 <gautierchomel> CircularKen: We can add a note saying that we focus on EPUB and XHTML but that other formats exist and may benefit from this guidelines.
15:54:02 <gautierchomel> q+
15:54:15 <wendyreid> ack gautierchomel
15:54:42 <wendyreid> gautierchomel: I found an accessibility features in SVG note, but it's from 2000, something more recent might be out there?
15:54:48 <wendyreid> ... that might be the way to proceed
15:54:56 <DRogers_> q+
15:55:00 <wendyreid> ... point to external resources
15:55:02 <gpellegrino> +1 to limit the scope to HTML, stating it in the introduction
15:55:13 <wendyreid> ... it would be good to have more up to date reference documents
15:55:23 <wendyreid> ack DRogers_
15:56:24 <gpellegrino> q+
15:56:28 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
15:57:12 <gautierchomel> gpellegrino: on SVG we can ask Ivan.
15:58:20 <gautierchomel> wendyreid: yes, and the wcag group too.
15:58:59 <wendyreid> zakim, end meeting
15:58:59 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been CircularKen, sue-neu, gpellegrino, jgriggs_prh, gautierchomel, SimonPRH, CharlesL, Hadrien
15:59:01 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:59:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/18-epub-fxl-minutes.html Zakim
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15:59:10 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, wendyreid; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
15:59:10 <Zakim> Zakim has left #epub-fxl
16:18:46 <wendyreid> rrsagent, bye
16:18:46 <RRSAgent> I see no action items