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17:53:51 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/12/14-aria-irc
17:53:51 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:53:52 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
17:53:57 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
17:53:57 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
17:53:58 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ecffaf8b-8aa7-4acc-b238-6088a86cf12f/20231214T130000/
17:53:58 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:53:58 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New Issue Triage http://tinyurl.com/3a6hhdxt
17:53:58 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New PR Triage http://tinyurl.com/yckkc4yk
17:54:00 <agendabot> agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Aweb-platform-tests%2Fwpt+is%3Aopen+label%3Awai-aria%2Caccname&type=pullrequests
17:54:02 <jamesn> chair: JamesNurthen
17:54:04 <agendabot> agenda+ -> ACT Rule Review https://github.com/w3c/aria/discussions/2078
17:54:06 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Consider a mechanism to associate controls without an explicit grouping https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1721
17:54:09 <agendabot> agenda+ -> handling multi-selection / selection confirmation of action for menus https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2067
17:54:12 <agendabot> agenda+ -> aria-controls spec update https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1996
17:54:56 <jamesn> zakim, drop item 3
17:54:56 <Zakim> agendum 3, -> WPT Open PRs https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Aweb-platform-tests%2Fwpt+is%3Aopen+label%3Awai-aria%2Caccname&type=pullrequests, dropped
17:55:30 <StefanS> StefanS has joined #aria
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18:01:15 <pkra> present+
18:01:18 <Adam_Page> scribe: Adam_Page
18:01:21 <Adam_Page> present+
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18:01:27 <giacomo-petri> present+
18:01:38 <Rahim> present+
18:01:41 <Francis_Storr> present+
18:02:37 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:02:37 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage http://tinyurl.com/3a6hhdxt -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:02:49 <melsumner> melsumner has joined #aria
18:02:55 <melsumner> present+
18:03:09 <Adam_Page> jamesn: core-aam/#215
18:03:31 <Adam_Page> ... this is probably for the Apple folks?
18:03:43 <Adam_Page> Rahim: yep, there’s internal discussion — I’ll update it
18:03:56 <Adam_Page> jamesn: aria/#2089
18:03:59 <Adam_Page> pkra: this is mine
18:04:33 <Adam_Page> jamesn: everything is meant to inherit global states and properties, so this is a bug
18:04:41 <Adam_Page> pkra: I’ll take assignment and fix it
18:05:02 <Adam_Page> jamesn: dpub-aria/#62
18:06:18 <scotto> scotto has joined #aria
18:06:25 <Adam_Page> ... no need for us to discuss, let’s just leave this
18:06:46 <Adam_Page> jamesn: aria/#2087
18:07:04 <Adam_Page> pkra: spillover from editors meeting
18:07:21 <scotto> present+
18:07:28 <Adam_Page> ... let’s discuss it more in the next editors meeting
18:07:32 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:07:32 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage http://tinyurl.com/yckkc4yk -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:07:44 <Adam_Page> jamesn: aria/#2090
18:08:17 <Adam_Page> scotto: needs jcraig’s review
18:08:37 <Adam_Page> jamesn: added jcraig and James Teh
18:08:43 <Adam_Page> ... other reviewers welcome
18:08:48 <Adam_Page> jamesn: aria/#2088
18:09:03 <Adam_Page> ... please review and comment
18:09:14 <Adam_Page> ... it’s still draft though
18:09:21 <Adam_Page> jamesn: aria/#214
18:09:27 <Adam_Page> ...editorial, so doesn’t need wide review
18:09:45 <Adam_Page> shigley: I worked on this, I’ll review it
18:09:59 <Adam_Page> jamesn: I’ll review as well
18:10:14 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:10:14 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> ACT Rule Review https://github.com/w3c/aria/discussions/2078 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:10:40 <Adam_Page> jamesn: Wilco asked us a month ago to look at 3 ACT rules
18:10:50 <Adam_Page> ... please review and comment
18:11:17 <Adam_Page> ... they’re creating rulesets that different automated checkers can use in a more standardized way
18:11:40 <Adam_Page> ... ARIA errors won’t necessarily be a WCAG failure
18:12:40 <Adam_Page> ... these are all 1.2 based, so 1.3 might introduce some new failures until ACT is updated
18:12:40 <dmontalvo> present+ Daniel
18:12:51 <dmontalvo> q+
18:13:03 <Adam_Page> scotto: I reviewed and approved all three
18:13:05 <keithamus> present+
18:16:13 <Adam_Page> dmontalvo: we should just focus on ARIA rules and whether they disagree with the ARIA spec
18:16:18 <jamesn> ack dmontalvo
18:16:50 <Adam_Page> jamesn: please review and thumbs-up or comment
18:17:00 <melsumner> These are some lint checks we've put into Ember's linter so it's great to see these at a broader scale. :thumbsup:
18:17:00 <Adam_Page> dmontalvo: we’re trying to publish these by the end of next week
18:18:14 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:18:14 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> Consider a mechanism to associate controls without an explicit grouping https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1721 -- taken up [from agendabot]
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18:18:50 <Adam_Page> jamesn: why did we leave this on the agenda?
18:19:04 <Adam_Page> scotto: we mainly discussed `details/summary`
18:19:06 <jamesn> q+
18:20:03 <Adam_Page> ... seemed a little weird that buttons and other controls could have aria-posinset when they‘re descendants of toolbar
18:20:15 <Adam_Page> ... wonder if we’d want to call that out
18:20:43 <Adam_Page> jamesn: I don’t see any reason why you’d need posinset for toolbars
18:20:54 <Adam_Page> ... you never need to fetch more things
18:21:07 <Adam_Page> MattKing: we use it on tabs
18:21:11 <Adam_Page> jamesn: why?
18:21:28 <Adam_Page> ... sometimes we do because the browser doesn’t calculate correctly
18:22:17 <Adam_Page> MattKing: my question on this is how do you label the group if you don’t have a grouping mechanism?
18:22:43 <Adam_Page> jamesn: yes, while HTML supports some of these — like radio buttons — is it a good idea to have discontiguous things belong to a group?
18:22:51 <Adam_Page> ... isn’t the whole concept confusing?
18:23:04 <Adam_Page> MattKing: discontiguous?
18:23:14 <Adam_Page> jamesn: radio buttons separated with text elements, for example
18:23:25 <jamesn> ack me
18:24:07 <Adam_Page> scotto: you could have a single-selection grid right now and you use radio buttons to allow selection of a row
18:24:21 <Adam_Page> jamesn: and that works until you have any other thing focusable in that grid
18:24:46 <Adam_Page> MattKing: why use radios in that scenario?
18:25:01 <Adam_Page> scotto: because they’re the simplest way to do single selection
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18:26:20 <sarah> present+
18:26:29 <Adam_Page> sarah: when you have a control inside a grid cell that changes the selection of that cell‘s row, what control would you use?
18:26:41 <Adam_Page> MattKing: you could probably use any toggle-able control
18:26:42 <jamesn> regrets+ CurtBellew
18:26:45 <melsumner> I'd allow checkboxes but probably not radio buttons. :Shrug:
18:26:54 <Mario_Batusic> q+
18:27:01 <sarah> q+
18:27:40 <Adam_Page> scotto: the reason I’d advise someone to use radio is because of desktop support and iOS row focus behavior
18:28:08 <melsumner> wait I think about tables and grids as different things and I'm hearing us interchange the terms
18:28:42 <jamesn> q+
18:28:48 <jamesn> qv?
18:28:54 <jamesn> ack Mario_Batusic
18:29:50 <Adam_Page> Mario_Batusic: if you use radios in a grid, or textbox between radios, then you disturb the normal keyboard expectations
18:30:08 <Adam_Page> jamesn: agree
18:30:11 <jamesn> ack sarah
18:30:44 <Adam_Page> sarah: if you need this to work in mobile, there’s no choice but to use radio
18:31:00 <Adam_Page> ... cards are another example, where they can be single- or multi-select
18:31:06 <Mario_Batusic> q-
18:31:10 <Adam_Page> ... keyboard behavior is handled manually for those
18:31:26 <Adam_Page> ... and so far, that’s not been a problem — it’s semantics and selection communication that has been difficult
18:31:40 <sarah> ack me
18:31:46 <Adam_Page> ... so I think this will be helpful for app-like contexts
18:32:26 <Adam_Page> MattKing: this is why I want listbox to support both single- and multi-select
18:32:57 <Adam_Page> sarah: on mobile, gridcells are not selectable
18:33:20 <Adam_Page> MattKing: there are certainly interop issues, but that shouldn’t necessarily influence the spec
18:33:32 <Adam_Page> sarah: but those interop issues are unlikely to be resolved
18:34:34 <StefanS> present+
18:34:43 <jamesn> qv?
18:35:09 <Adam_Page> MattKing: when AT users encounter a radio group, they have an expectation to traverse them all to discover what the options are
18:35:24 <Adam_Page> ... this changes the fundamental purpose of the radio pattern
18:35:47 <Adam_Page> jamesn: I’m still concerned about the keyboard interaction
18:36:35 <Adam_Page> ... radio feels like a non-starter for these scenarios
18:37:05 <Adam_Page> ... live regions can be a workaround for poor AT support for conveying selected states, not ideal but possible
18:37:25 <Mario_Batusic> q+
18:37:31 <jamesn> ack me
18:37:34 <jamesn> q+
18:37:50 <jamesn> ack Mario_Batusic
18:38:51 <jamesn> regrets+ JuanitaGeorge
18:39:21 <jamesn> q-
18:39:50 <Mario_Batusic> q-
18:39:57 <Adam_Page> scotto: let’s table this part and finalize the first part
18:40:10 <Adam_Page> ... about posinset with toolbars
18:40:47 <jamesn> regrets+ CoryJoesph
18:41:01 <Adam_Page> MattKing: is there any appetite in this group for adding a single- and mult-select grid example in APG for first half of 2024?
18:41:01 <jamesn> regrets+ AndreaCardona
18:41:17 <Adam_Page> scotto: I think that’s a great idea
18:42:31 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
18:42:31 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> handling multi-selection / selection confirmation of action for menus https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2067 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:43:18 <Adam_Page> scotto: listboxes right now have poor multi-select support
18:43:49 <Adam_Page> ... we talked about this with combo boxes being able to open up menus
18:44:08 <Adam_Page> ... there are use cases where you might want to select multiple things within a menu
18:44:12 <Adam_Page> ... like rich text editor
18:44:39 <Adam_Page> ... like a menu that exposes bold, italic, etc. and you want to be able to activate multiples of them without the menu closing
18:45:01 <Adam_Page> ... i.e., just keep the menu open until the user is done
18:45:23 <Adam_Page> MattKing: we distinguish between space and enter — space just activated, and enter activated-and-closed
18:45:40 <Adam_Page> ... but got feedback that it wasn’t discoverable
18:45:41 <Adam_Page> ... and from Apple, not feasible
18:45:55 <Adam_Page> ... the problem is there’s no affordance for the user “being done”
18:46:06 <Rahim> q+
18:46:44 <Adam_Page> ... a good example is the assignee UI in GitHub
18:46:45 <jamesn> q?
18:46:55 <jamesn> agenda?
18:47:24 <Adam_Page> ... seems like many of these should actually be non-modal dialogs
18:47:43 <jamesn> ack Rahim
18:48:27 <Adam_Page> Rahim: what’s the mouse and voice control experience, to know whether something supports multi-selection, and how to close
18:48:41 <Adam_Page> ... so like MattKing said, this is really about having dedicated controls for each function
18:49:23 <keithamus> q+
18:50:05 <Adam_Page> MattKing: the GitHub assignee UI does not need to be a menu; it’s really just a disclosure
18:51:19 <Adam_Page> KeithCirkel: we’re actually changing this GitHub UI to a dialog
18:51:32 <Adam_Page> ... and there will be a dedicated OK button
18:51:46 <Adam_Page> ... and mouse users won’t be able to dismiss by clicking outside
18:52:17 <Adam_Page> ... it will be a modal dialog
18:52:41 <keithamus> s/KeithCirkel/keithamus
18:54:44 <Adam_Page> scotto: I understand all this, and I still think there’s merit for menus to not *always* close upon selection of a menuitem
18:55:19 <Adam_Page> jamesn: any more to say on this?
18:55:40 <Adam_Page> scotto: not urgent, but please offer other ideas
18:55:42 <sarah> q+
18:56:09 <melsumner> If folks aren't willing to refactor their broken widgets idk if that's something this group should be taking on TBQH. Sometimes implementations are incorrect and have to be remediated, that's just part of the job of web development.
18:56:13 <jamesn> ack keithamus
18:56:29 <jamesn> ack sarah
18:57:21 <Adam_Page> sarah: this seems like a very straightforward improvement we can make for menus without diving into comboboxes and dialogs
18:57:44 <Adam_Page> MattKing: we still need a way to convey to users how the dismissal will work
18:57:52 <Adam_Page> ... keyboard experience, voice experience, etc.
18:57:58 <Adam_Page> ... that will need to be documented
18:58:07 <Adam_Page> scotto: that’s fair
18:58:33 <Adam_Page> zakim, end meeting
18:58:33 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been pkra, Adam_Page, giacomo-petri, Rahim, Francis_Storr, melsumner, scotto, Daniel, keithamus, sarah, StefanS
18:58:35 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
18:58:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/14-aria-minutes.html Zakim
18:58:44 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Adam_Page; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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