15:03:16 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wot-td
15:03:20 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/12/13-wot-td-irc
15:03:23 <kaz> meeting: WoT-WG - TD-TF
15:03:25 <kaz> q+
15:03:45 <kaz> ack k
15:03:49 <kaz> chair: Ege
15:04:21 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Ege_Korkan, Cristiano_Aguzzi, Daniel_Peintner, Jan_Romann
15:05:16 <Ege_2> Ege_2 has joined #wot-td
15:05:16 <JKRhb> JKRhb has joined #wot-td
15:07:02 <Ege> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf
15:10:32 <mahda-noura> present+ Mahda_Noura
15:16:38 <Ege_2> Ege_2 has joined #wot-td
15:17:11 <kaz> regrets+ Koster
15:18:36 <cris__> ege: we did an agenda review
15:18:41 <cris__> ... anything else?
15:18:47 <kaz> agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#December_13.2C_2023
15:18:53 <cris__> kaz: did you include the resource mantanence issue?
15:18:55 <cris__> ege: yes
15:19:03 <cris__> topic: Minutes
15:19:12 <kaz> s/mantanence/maintenance/
15:19:16 <cris__> ege: minutes are ok
15:19:21 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
15:19:22 <cris__> ... Koster reviewed them too
15:19:25 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:19:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/13-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:19:33 <cris__> ... any other issue?
15:19:55 <kaz> i|minutes are|-> https://www.w3.org/2023/12/06-wot-td-minutes.html Dec-6|
15:20:28 <cris__> topic: schedule
15:20:30 <kaz> i|we did an agenda|scribenick: cris__|
15:20:51 <cris__> ege: updated the calendar accordingly the latest plans
15:21:20 <kaz> i|we did an agenda|topic: Agenda|
15:21:22 <cris__> kaz: I will create the zoom link
15:21:25 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:21:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/13-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:21:56 <cris__> ... should I create two links or re-use this one?
15:22:01 <cris__> ege: we can keep this one
15:22:14 <kaz> s/this one/this one for Wednesday/g
15:22:17 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:22:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/13-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:22:40 <cris__> topic: WoT resources
15:22:51 <cris__> ege: we need to agree how to maintain our resources.
15:23:03 <cris__> ... it is not part of the rec publication process
15:23:18 <cris__> ... if we just update them we don't need to the usual publication process
15:23:25 <cris__> ... TM html is missing
15:23:42 <kaz> i|we did an|-> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#December_13.2C_2023 agenda for today|
15:23:42 <cris__> ... Madha is working on a solution
15:23:42 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:23:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/13-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:23:51 <cris__> ... once merge it we can move it to resources
15:24:40 <kaz> i|we need to agree|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1935 PR 1935 - Empty tm documents|
15:24:47 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:24:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/13-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:25:12 <cris__> madha: showing the rendered document
15:25:22 <cris__> ege: same terms from the TD rec
15:25:28 <cris__> ... nothing new here
15:26:00 <cris__> ... this is a new file, but the ttl has been updated (there were some missing pieces)
15:26:07 <cris__> ... what should we do with those changes?
15:26:17 <cris__> ... they are not breaking changes for tm users
15:26:41 <cris__> q+
15:27:12 <cris__> ... from my point of view we can change it right now
15:27:30 <cris__> madha: it still lacks some concepts
15:29:18 <cris__> cris: are there only additions?
15:29:39 <cris__> madha: just a minor update of two annotation properties
15:29:50 <cris__> ... there were also syntax issues
15:31:04 <cris__> ege: other opionions?
15:31:17 <cris__> ... ok
15:31:30 <cris__> ... about the editors
15:31:47 <cris__> ... we have Mahda and Sebastian. I think we are fine
15:32:13 <cris__> ... however we don't have a policy or agreement on who to put in there
15:33:51 <cris__> ... any objection to use Mahda and Sebastian?
15:33:55 <cris__> cris: fine for me
15:34:08 <cris__> ... just remember that we can use Authors in respect too
15:35:43 <cris__> ege: any other comments for the PR?
15:35:46 <kaz> present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima
15:35:49 <kaz> q+
15:35:52 <cris__> ... thank you we can go ahead
15:35:53 <cris__> ack c
15:36:06 <cris__> kaz: there is no impact for implementations
15:36:13 <cris__> ege: correct
15:36:22 <kaz> ack k
15:38:56 <cris__> ege: showing differences between editors and authors
15:39:39 <cris__> cris: it is not clear how the different types of contributors are treated
15:40:29 <kaz> q+
15:40:50 <dape> q+ to HTML rendered ontology file use ReSpec and have errors/warnings, see https://www.w3.org/2019/wot/td
15:41:43 <kaz> ack k
15:42:00 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/Guide/ W3C Guidebook page
15:42:26 <cris__> ege: for w3c is specific
15:42:33 <kaz> -> https://w3c.github.io/Guide/editor/ Editor homepage
15:42:40 <cris__> ... but none of the rights
15:42:56 <kaz> -> https://w3c.github.io/Guide/editor/role.html Role of Spec Editor
15:43:29 <kaz> q+
15:44:55 <cris__> kaz: typically editors are taskforce leaders
15:45:06 <cris__> ege: authors is more document specific
15:45:08 <kaz> ack k
15:46:23 <cris__> dape: if you click on the link we get the old ontology of the TD
15:46:31 <cris__> ... first we have errors
15:46:59 <cris__> ... also it shows that it is the latest version (it is not clear that is the old one)
15:47:11 <cris__> ... weird text in the status of This document
15:47:24 <cris__> ... first we should not use ReSpec but plain HTML
15:47:30 <cris__> ... it is time to check all the others
15:48:50 <cris__> ege: ok we can fix this, no implementation impact
15:49:08 <cris__> ... definitly something to do asap
15:51:23 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:51:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/13-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:51:31 <cris__> topic: Binding Templates
15:51:53 <kaz> s/madha/mahda/g
15:52:13 <cris__> ege: we can use issue filter for checking if some issue was fixed by some PRs during the week
15:52:23 <cris__> ... we have two PRs for modbus
15:52:30 <cris__> subtopic: PR 329
15:53:19 <cris__> ege: improved text in the introduction
15:53:26 <cris__> ... better scope
15:54:08 <kaz> i|improved|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/329 PR 329 - Modbus introduction improvement|
15:56:08 <cris__> cris: a sentence was not clear but I need time to remember why
15:56:12 <cris__> ... can we merge it later?
15:56:16 <cris__> ege: no problem
15:56:50 <cris__> subtopic: PR 343
15:57:14 <cris__> ege: simply typos fixing
15:57:18 <cris__> cris: ok for me
15:58:00 <cris__> subtopic: PR 336
15:58:06 <cris__> ege: is it ready to merge?
15:59:19 <cris__> mahda: it should
15:59:28 <cris__> cris: just remember to update the context file
15:59:35 <cris__> ege: ok wait for Sebastian input
15:59:39 <kaz> i|is it|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/336 PR 336 - Modbus Dataproperty terms changed to align with best practices|
15:59:55 <cris__> ege: it impacts other ontologies as well
16:00:06 <cris__> ... at least we were consistent
16:00:10 <kaz> q+
16:00:56 <cris__> mahda: my only concern is that syntactly is correct. but in RDF triples are not correct with the meaning.
16:01:01 <cris__> q+
16:01:12 <kaz> ack d
16:01:12 <Zakim> dape, you wanted to HTML rendered ontology file use ReSpec and have errors/warnings, see https://www.w3.org/2019/wot/td
16:01:13 <dape> ack dape
16:01:48 <cris__> kaz: hasAddress implies a frag where there is an address
16:01:57 <cris__> ... hasAddress feels more like a boolean
16:02:21 <cris__> ege: correct
16:02:30 <cris__> ... if should do a bulk update
16:02:35 <kaz> s/frag/flag/
16:02:37 <cris__> s/if/we/
16:02:59 <cris__> ege: note that is going to be a breaking change
16:03:03 <mahda-noura> +1
16:04:35 <mahda-noura> q+
16:04:35 <kaz> ack k
16:05:11 <kaz> i/note that/kaz: which is our intention here, boolean flag or address value?/
16:05:26 <cris__> cris: bulk update is dangerous but we can do it. It is better to have a guideline somewhere to remind ourselves and future ontology editors.
16:05:29 <kaz> i/note that/ege: address value here.../
16:05:33 <dape> q+
16:05:38 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:05:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/13-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:05:45 <kaz> q+
16:05:46 <cris__> ack c
16:05:48 <cris__> ack m
16:06:02 <kaz> i/which is/scribenick: kaz/
16:06:10 <kaz> i/note that/scribenick: cris__/
16:06:47 <cris__> dape: can we do a sort of redirection or renaming?
16:06:51 <dape> ack dape
16:07:58 <cris__> cris: we could use sameAs relationship or other mechanisms like that but it is not real redirection
16:08:07 <cris__> kaz: for 2.0 we should fix the problem
16:09:09 <mahda-noura> q+
16:09:31 <kaz> ack k
16:09:54 <cris__> mahda: I checked the TD I noticed the naming there is correct
16:10:45 <Ege_2> q?
16:10:56 <cris__> ... only the "minor ontologies" (bindings, hypermedia etc.) need to be fixed
16:10:57 <kaz> s/fix the problem/fix the problem, but in any case, we have to see if our intention was really expressing the value instead of the boolean flag by "hasAddress", etc., to make sure before adding changes, and have to clearly record the fact./
16:11:15 <kaz> q+
16:11:20 <kaz> ack mah
16:11:42 <cris__> kaz: we need to check with specification or note need to be fixed and record the fact clearly
16:11:44 <kaz> ack k
16:13:37 <mahda-noura> ScrbeNick: mahda-noura
16:13:46 <mahda-noura> Topic: TD Next
16:15:02 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/ege-workitem-linking/planning/ThingDescription/work-items.md
16:16:12 <kaz> s/Scrbe/Scribe/
16:16:17 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:16:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/13-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:16:30 <mahda-noura> ege: links changed in the work-items.md file
16:16:56 <mahda-noura> ...the specification refactoring roadmap with some order
16:17:33 <mahda-noura> ...also Ege made sure that they all have descriptions
16:19:42 <mahda-noura> ...the documents have more text, which is mostly not new, and are copied from the charter documents and linked to the charter document to avoid duplication
16:20:13 <mahda-noura> ...the usability design section in the document is now much longer, copied over stuff
16:21:02 <mahda-noura> ...for the TD.Next features we need another document for each of the sub-topics to avoid the main document getting too large
16:21:13 <mahda-noura> ...any opinion on this and going with this direction
16:21:27 <mahda-noura> cris: +1 from cris side
16:22:30 <mahda-noura> ege: will be merged, later we can use the sub-topic from the TD Next as labels for the issues in the future related to these topics
16:23:27 <mahda-noura> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1933
16:24:07 <mahda-noura> ...PR from Mahda about the toolchain and has updates on the figure text
16:24:52 <cris__> q+
16:24:56 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:24:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/13-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:25:36 <mahda-noura> ...Mahda also started to look at different tools to simplify the existing toolchain process
16:25:36 <mahda-noura> ...we will have follow up discussion
16:26:05 <mahda-noura> cris: did Mahda find another mechanism than the templating, as its super hard to maintain
16:26:38 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/blob/ee5d7f3d5d06391588b52c2431ba4dddf736ab3c/toolchain/README.md rendered README.md
16:26:47 <mahda-noura> ege: based on our discussion, there is no tool that can generate the whole specificaction
16:27:51 <mahda-noura> mahda: I am currently looking at the first activity to simplify that
16:28:15 <kaz> q+
16:28:17 <mahda-noura> cris: the current problem with the template language is the debugging is difficult
16:28:26 <mahda-noura> +1
16:28:43 <mahda-noura> kaz: I still have some difficulty in understanding of the flow of the diagram
16:28:45 <Mizushima> Mizushima has joined #wot-td
16:30:01 <mahda-noura> ...semantic web experts is what kind of expertise should the data generator should have. maybe it would be easier to have the different phases
16:30:22 <mahda-noura> ege: I think I didn't understand it
16:30:57 <mahda-noura> kaz: The title semantic web expert, but that is not really who and what kind of expertise is expected. Probably it would be better to have the title of the phase
16:31:10 <mahda-noura> ...it might be better to have the phase name as the title
16:33:01 <mahda-noura> Mahda: The BPMN diagram for the semantic web denotes the role who has to perform those tasks
16:33:46 <mahda-noura> ege: we can extend this to address the points of kaz
16:34:36 <mahda-noura> kaz: changing the name to TD Task Force participant
16:35:43 <mahda-noura> ege: there are some comments added in the corresponding PR https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1933
16:36:26 <kaz> s/The title semantic web expert, but that is not really who and what kind of expertise is expected./The title of the first row says "Semantic Web Expert", but that is not "What to do for this phase" but rather "Expected capability"./
16:36:27 <mahda-noura> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1937
16:37:05 <kaz> s/Probably it would be better to have the title of the phase/Probably it would be better to have the title of the phase itself, e.g., "1. Generating the source data"./
16:37:39 <mahda-noura> ege: merged PR, and now working on the document
16:37:39 <dape> q+
16:37:49 <kaz> ack c ack k
16:37:56 <kaz> s/ack c ack k/
16:37:57 <kaz> ack c
16:37:58 <kaz> ack k
16:37:59 <cris__> ack c
16:38:05 <mahda-noura> Dave: we shouldn't forget to remove the old content
16:38:15 <mahda-noura> ege: I already removed
16:38:20 <dape> ack dape
16:38:28 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:38:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/13-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:38:36 <dape> s/Dave/Daniel
16:40:16 <cris__> q+
16:40:25 <mahda-noura> ege: there are some old issues, what is your opinion
16:40:26 <kaz> i|https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1933|subtopic: Toolchain description update|
16:40:34 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:40:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/13-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:40:59 <mahda-noura> cris: I am on for closing the issues, because closing the issue won't delete it, means we are not currently addressing it
16:41:05 <dape> +1
16:41:30 <mahda-noura> ege: I am also on the closing side
16:42:02 <kaz> i|https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1937|subtopic: Project Management Proposal Draft|
16:42:06 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:42:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/13-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:42:24 <kaz> q+
16:42:29 <kaz> ack c
16:42:36 <mahda-noura> ege: my proposal for the inline security issue is to copy it over to the td-next-work-items and closing the issue
16:43:02 <mahda-noura> kaz: closing the issue for now is fine, but the WoT working group as a whole need to think about use case, and then later think about security again
16:43:12 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:43:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/13-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:45:46 <kaz> i|there are some old issues|subtopic: Old PRs|
16:45:57 <kaz> s/some old issues/some old PRs/
16:46:16 <kaz> s/closing the issue/closing the PR/
16:46:28 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:46:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/13-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:47:05 <kaz> s/closing the issues,/closing those PRs,/
16:47:40 <kaz> i|my proposal for|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/945 PR 945 - WIP: Simplified inline security definitions|
16:47:42 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:47:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/13-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:48:27 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1341 PR 1341 - schema term in expected response
16:49:22 <mahda-noura> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1330 PR 1330 - Event consumer: Alternative 2 - event consumer affordance
16:49:43 <kaz> i/1330/(closed)/
16:50:08 <kaz> i/https/-> https/
16:50:08 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:50:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/13-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:51:14 <mahda-noura> cris: we can close it and provide comments, the PR also links to the issue so it can be tracket
16:51:52 <mahda-noura> s/tracked/tracked
16:52:21 <mahda-noura>  s/tracket/tracked
16:52:42 <mahda-noura> ege: The PR has now some comments added to it
16:53:39 <mahda-noura> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1329 PR 1329 - Event consumer: Alternative 1 - event operation
16:54:03 <mahda-noura> subtopic: Unused folders
16:54:21 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:54:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/13-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:56:01 <dape> q+
16:56:01 <mahda-noura> ege: there are sometimes some unused folders like test-bed, the content of the td is even old and misleading, if we want to keep them we should move them a testing repository or so
16:56:01 <kaz> q-
16:56:01 <kaz> s|https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1330 PR 1330 - Event consumer: Alternative 2 - event consumer affordance|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1330 PR 1330 - Event consumer: Alternative 2 - event consumer affordance|
16:56:01 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:56:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/13-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:56:08 <mahda-noura> dape: We can simply remove it, it is there for historical reasons, I think it is not worth it to more around
16:56:08 <kaz> s|https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1329 PR 1329 - Event consumer: Alternative 1 - event operation|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1329 PR 1329 - Event consumer: Alternative 1 - event operation|
16:56:08 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:56:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/13-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:56:15 <mahda-noura> ege: I am also fine to remove it, it will be tracked in the history anyways
16:56:45 <kaz> i|THe PR has now|(closed)|
16:56:58 <kaz> i|Unused folders|(closed)|
16:57:09 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:57:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/13-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:58:10 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/tree/main/images
16:58:31 <kaz> i|test-bed|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/tree/main/test-bed wot-thing-description/test-bed|
16:58:32 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:58:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/13-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:59:12 <mahda-noura> ege: I would be more towards removing it
16:59:24 <mahda-noura> Dape:It is misleading
16:59:49 <kaz> s|https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/tree/main/images|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/tree/main/images wot-thing-description/images|
16:59:53 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:59:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/13-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
17:00:02 <mahda-noura> ege: I will have a double check on this and check it
17:00:22 <kaz> i|The PR has now|(closed)|
17:00:24 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:00:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/13-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
17:00:31 <mahda-noura> ege: is it fine if I merge the PR, if there is no repository using it?
17:00:35 <mahda-noura> (none)
17:00:51 <kaz> q+
17:01:48 <mahda-noura> kaz: I personally think we should have used the images, removing the images directory is fine at the end
17:02:05 <kaz> ack k
17:02:06 <kaz> ack d
17:02:07 <mahda-noura> ...given that we have been using the visualisation folder for years now
17:02:29 <mahda-noura> ...lets just use the obsolete data
17:02:57 <kaz> s/used the images/used the "images" directory to store the images/
17:03:10 <kaz> s/, removing the images directory is fine at the end//
17:03:12 <Ege> q?
17:04:04 <mahda-noura> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:04:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/13-wot-td-minutes.html mahda-noura
17:04:43 <kaz> s/given that we have been using the visualisation folder for years now/however, (unfortunately :) we have been using the "visualisation" directory for TD images for years, so removing the "images" directory is fine in the end./
17:04:48 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:04:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/13-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
17:06:41 <kaz> s/lets just use the obsolete data/let's just remove the obsolete "images" directory./
17:06:41 <kaz> [adjourned]
17:06:41 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:06:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/13-wot-td-minutes.html kaz