14:45:23 RRSAgent has joined #epub-fxl 14:45:27 logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/12/11-epub-fxl-irc 14:45:27 RRSAgent, make logs Public 14:45:58 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), wendyreid 14:45:59 meeting: EPUB FXL Accessibility Taskforce 14:45:59 date: 2023-12-11 14:45:59 chair: wendyreid 14:45:59 present+ 14:57:20 gautierchomel has joined #epub-fxl 15:01:29 sue-neu has joined #epub-fxl 15:01:35 present+ 15:01:58 SimonPRH has joined #epub-fxl 15:02:03 present+ 15:02:20 circularken has joined #epub-fxl 15:02:24 present+ 15:02:29 present+ 15:02:46 Bill_Kasdorf has joined #epub-fxl 15:03:33 scribe+ sue-neu 15:03:33 present+ 15:03:33 CharlesL3 has joined #epub-fxl 15:03:51 present+ 15:04:14 wendyreid: Can we quickly go over what we did while I was gone? 15:04:24 Hadrien has joined #epub-fxl 15:04:50 Gregorio: I can recount a bit. In two meetings we mainly spoke about the document and how it is written. We didn't take any edits because we wanted feedback from you. 15:05:09 Gregorio: In the last meeting we talked about future fixed layouts projects... 15:05:42 first thing, we looked at the legibility part, and we liked the approach. One suggestion... 15:06:01 reorganize the section on groups of WCAG success criteria... 15:06:40 the other thing we discussed was which level of WCAG to use, and decided on WCAG A+ 15:07:24 Gregorio: and mentioning AA but adding [sentancehere] ... 15:08:05 we discussed how difficult it might be for a creator without code experience to achieve these goals... 15:08:07 shadi has joined #epub-fxl 15:08:16 present 15:08:19 present+ 15:08:25 we found a wiki from the WCAG working group that defines complexity level with a yes or no 15:08:29 s/present/ 15:09:00 we know that telling people something that can't be achieved is unhelpful... 15:09:28 we discussed the section of font faces and font families, though this isn't a requirement for accessibility but may be of interest... 15:09:46 so we agreed to mention it... 15:10:10 we discussed the use of multiple spans, and whether these are disruptive to assistive technologies... 15:10:23 it depends on the settings but default settings tend to work... 15:10:39 there are problems with text to speech but this is not a code issue... 15:11:09 using a lot of spans isn't a good code practice but can cause problems when fonts or sizes or changed... 15:11:49 specific fonts embedded in fxl that are not embedded can cause readability problems... 15:12:04 some of our comments at the beginning of the document are more about html... 15:12:26 susan would like to help with the media section... 15:12:56 *someone is helping with the readability section 15:13:28 wendreid: We're going to run into this alot, this problem with code experience... 15:13:38 we're talking about alot that is technical... 15:13:42 Q+ 15:13:53 how the content is coded and structured, you gotta know html... 15:14:06 ack SimonPRH 15:14:10 if you don't you can make a perfect design that isn't acceptable 15:14:50 SimonPRH: one of the most fundamental things, like reading order, is a challenge to communicate to a supplier 15:15:35 wendyreid: the outsourcing firms should know better, and this might be a culture change 15:16:11 SimonPRH: its not always clear in a fxl layout what the reading order should be. It should be incumbent on the publisher to make this clear 15:16:45 Gregorio: I didn't change the document, but I could help after Christmas 15:17:08 wendyreid: let me pull out all the success criteria, and then I can see what we need to do 15:17:48 gregorio: our idea was not to use a single success criteria, but 4 or 5 criteria 15:18:05 Q+ 15:18:09 ack circularken 15:18:13 wendyreid: about the legibility section, should we pull that out so it is clear that this isn't WCAG? 15:18:48 circularken: this is a good solution for the font section, to make it clear that this is just good practice and not WCAG 15:19:12 gregorio: and to make it clear that it is different than html and fonts on the web 15:19:45 wendyreid: I realized that a lot of the WCAG material is design-related but written from a technical point of view... 15:20:39 WCAG seems to have a bias toward people with vision issues... 15:20:52 I see you discussed future changeability... 15:21:17 the reading systems playing with this are very niche with limited catalogs... 15:21:59 gregorio: we should invite the French company that has an interesting approach to children's publications, to come speak to us 15:22:37 wendyreid: 5+ years ago we talked about what responsive ebook design looks like... 15:22:55 maybe we should revive that... 15:23:51 what can we tell publishers that they can do, how to make your content look the way you want it to and still be accessible 15:24:48 wendyreid: Sometimes spans are used letter by letter especially in children's books where special type treatments are used 15:25:16 SimonPRH: should we tell people to use images with alt text in those cases? 15:25:38 q+ 15:25:38 wendyreid: I'll get the names of those companies and reach out to them and see what they can do... 15:25:42 ack circularken 15:25:46 if it is sustainable 15:26:43 circularken: my suggestion of discarding positional information withing spans and relying on heirachy will let us create accessible documents 15:27:55 circularken: there is a question about section markers/tags? Should we not have them in fxl? Should we put tags on something other than sections? 15:28:03 gregorio: I remember an aria attribute that will specify that an attribute continues 15:28:12 circularken: like flow to? 15:28:38 wendyreid: Have we gotten any feedback about how impactful some of the properties are to the UX? 15:29:00 gregorio: in Daisy we did some tests with combinations of assisted techs and browsers... 15:29:32 in Chrome, all the roles are spoken out, and in some other tech stacks... 15:29:39 the most problematic is 15:29:58 s/the most problematic is// 15:30:22 Apple we reached out to the aria working group to implement epub aria roles in Safari 15:31:05 charles: We met with Apple and James Craig, they wanted to adjust the specification in response... 15:31:15 and then be able to test it as well... 15:31:40 we picked the most important aria roles and then classifield them... 15:31:55 they agreed to add them to the Apple API... 15:32:26 he was concerned about translation issues and are taking a slower approach. Some progress was made over the last year. 15:33:27 wendyreid: I'm curious if we've done user testing to make sure section flows over multiple page documents... 15:33:43 are we getting feedback from users that this is something they want... 15:33:58 is this repetitve since reading systems already do some of this... 15:34:37 charlesL3: I don't think we've done any testing we've assumed that a screen reader jumps somewhere and you don't necessarily know where you are... 15:34:42 It would be nice to have "begin chapter" and "end chapter 15:34:59 it might be helpful to have the section announced... 15:35:04 s/"end chapter/"end chapter" semantics. 15:35:27 wendyreid: we built that into our reading system... 15:36:04 q+ 15:36:06 CharlesL3: if you're reading along in a chapter, its different than jumping to a new chapter... 15:36:18 but you don't want the chapter repeated for every html page... 15:36:53 wendyreid: we decided that in ereading, when you jump to a specific page, you will want to know what chapter you're in... 15:37:09 you may not want to hear it everytime the page turns 15:37:14 ack circularken 15:37:43 CircularKen: Should we not use section markers to indicate aria roles? 15:38:01 wendyreid: In your case I think it could go on any html element... 15:38:26 the bigger thing is testing that the flow to or continuous feature works, and if it is useful to the reader 15:38:44 q+ 15:38:47 ack SimonPRH 15:39:13 SimonPRH: Is this meeting still happening next week, but not the meeting on Christmas Day 15:39:24 q+ 15:39:59 there will not be a meeting Jan 1, we will reconvene Jan 8 15:40:24 ack circularken 15:40:25 q+ 15:41:01 CircularKen: If anyone has any information if flow-through is supported that would be helpful 15:41:21 CircularKen: is this an open community group? 15:41:50 wendyreid: we have an open policy, you don't need to be a member of W3C though you will need an account... 15:42:03 you do not need a corporate sponsor... 15:42:11 ack sue-neu 15:42:32 q+ 15:42:44 sue-neu: After Gregorio talked me through GH, I took a stab at writing the media section, took things from other areas like WCAG 15:42:50 ... just working on a draft 15:42:57 ... right now I don't know what the next step is 15:43:44 sue-neu: I made a stab at the media section... 15:44:20 ack CharlesL 15:44:30 wendyreid: let's talk outside the meeting to figure out next steps 15:44:52 CharlesL_3: what is our timeline? 15:45:04 q+ 15:45:20 wendyreid: I was hoping for the end of the year, but we won't make that... 15:45:28 we are in good shape... 15:45:53 the EU commission has pushed us off, and will not be meeting with us by the end of the year... 15:46:08 ack gautierchomel 15:46:11 It would be nice if we have this document ready when they are ready to meet with us... 15:47:13 gautierchomel: I will be able to contribute in early January I'd like to discuss a few points with you... 15:47:36 wendyreid: If we are lucky we will be able to share this a the accessible ebook summit 15:49:03 wendyreid: I will reach out to Sue and Gautier about contributing and send out invites for January 15:50:18 rrsagent, make minutes 15:50:20 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/11-epub-fxl-minutes.html sue-neu 15:51:43 zakim, end meeting 15:51:43 As of this point the attendees have been wendyreid, sue-neu, SimonPRH, gautierchomel, circularken, Bill_Kasdorf, CharlesL, shadi 15:51:45 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 15:51:47 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/11-epub-fxl-minutes.html Zakim 15:51:53 I am happy to have been of service, sue-neu; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 15:51:53 Zakim has left #epub-fxl 15:53:04 rrsagent, bye 15:53:04 I see no action items