16:02:12 RRSAgent has joined #tt 16:02:16 logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/12/07-tt-irc 16:02:18 RRSAgent, make logs Public 16:02:19 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 16:02:29 Present: Andreas, Pierre, Nigel 16:02:31 Chair: Nigel 16:02:33 Regrets: Gary 16:02:52 Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/11/23-tt-minutes.html 16:02:57 Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/270 16:03:02 Present+ Atsushi 16:04:04 scribe: nigel 16:04:09 Topic: This meeting 16:05:17 Nigel: Today we have IMSC-HRM and DAPT on the agenda. 16:05:35 .. Specifically with IMSC-HRM, some test suite changes and implementation work 16:05:54 .. And for DAPT the main thing to cover is the languages PR 16:06:10 .. Any other business, or points to make sure we cover within those agenda topics? 16:06:21 no other business 16:06:26 Topic: IMSC-HRM 16:07:08 Subtopic: Add note on conversion from CTA 608 signals w3c/imsc-hrm#72 16:07:19 github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc-hrm/pull/72 16:07:41 atai has joined #tt 16:07:56 Nigel: There's been some debate on the wording for this editorial note, would 16:08:04 .. be good to complete it today if we can. 16:08:35 .. Pierre, any specific questions to be able to resolve this? 16:08:59 Pierre: The general disagreement is if we should make a more general statement and 16:09:06 .. I'm not excited by that for 2 reasons. 16:09:40 .. 1 is, there's a case I'm comfortable talking about, which is the 608 line 21 example at 59.94fps 16:09:55 .. I've seen a lot of streams like that. 16:10:07 .. 2nd is, this is just a note and we should try to avoid designing a system in the note. 16:10:16 .. The general question of conversion to IMSC is worth its own document. 16:10:26 .. I'd like to keep it to just a specific example highlighting the challenges. 16:10:29 .. That's my preference. 16:10:41 .. I'm happy with the group decision ultimately. 16:11:12 .. I can try to make another pass explaining that more clearly. 16:12:14 Nigel: Worth noting that this note is right after an "e.g." pointing to 608 in the text immediately above it. 16:13:21 .. Can we just remove the phrase about 59.94 Hz? The issue would remain at other frame rates 16:13:27 .. such as 29.97. 16:13:38 Pierre: If that resolves both your and Cyril's concerns I'm happy to do it. 16:13:43 Present+ Cyril 16:14:21 Cyril: I don't think adding the sample rate helps, and I don't want to add a note that is not totally accurate. 16:15:53 Nigel: Maybe say "at the video field rate" to clarify that this isn't happening once every few seconds, 16:16:10 .. but many many times per second. 16:16:29 Pierre: There's a general misunderstanding - 608 is sampled at a field rate, but sometimes the packets 16:16:44 .. are combined for other transport mechanisms. But 608 has no option other than sampling at the field rate, 16:16:50 .. at least classic 608, like line 21. 16:17:09 Nigel: Is this the change that we can accept then? 16:17:19 Pierre: I'll put this on screen. [shares screen] 16:18:47 .. Now says "... for every CEA-608 packet, which are sampled at the video field rate. ..." 16:19:41 Cyril: I like that we removed the 59.94. Field rate is related to interlace. Should we say field or frame? 16:19:51 .. I'm fine with this. A field is a frame when there's no interlace. 16:20:03 .. And maybe we will have to change it again if we have Teletext issues. 16:21:16 Nigel: Teletext doesn't have this "build up a buffer character by character" approach, so it doesn't arise. 16:21:27 Pierre: That's modified, I'll ask for a re-review. 16:21:36 SUMMARY: Live edits made, needs re-review 16:21:58 Subtopic: IMSC-HRM Tests and call for implementations 16:22:22 Nigel: Exciting news: I completed a second validation implementation of IMSC HRM, 16:22:36 .. based on the EBU-TT Live Interoperability Toolkit, as a starting model. 16:22:52 .. That means it can process all the files in the test suite that can conform to EBU-TT-D as well as IMSC Text. 16:23:22 .. As part of this exercise I updated, and Pierre reviewed, the tests to be EBU-TT-D conformant. 16:23:38 .. We had some other fun along the way, identifying some tests that weren't quite right, 16:24:00 .. and found bugs. 16:24:13 Pierre: The bugs we found were in the implementations and we are fixing them right now. 16:25:24 Nigel: We also in the process of adding tests for region presentation. 16:25:38 .. That came out of a fun discussion about the handling of tts:showBackground on region elements 16:25:49 .. that set a backgroundColor that is not entirely transparent. 16:26:28 .. There's also an issue about one of the test pairs, dur005, which we're in the process of resolving. 16:26:34 .. So it's been a useful exercise. 16:27:18 .. Next steps: finish sorting out the tests, and update the implementation report to add the additional implementation. 16:27:38 Pierre: Have you checked the implementation report? 16:28:35 Nigel: Not yet. 16:28:41 Atsushi: I have not either. 16:29:25 .. The main question is we may need to list the mapping between HRM features and the test suite. 16:29:33 Pierre: In each of the test files there is a description. 16:29:44 Atsushi: In any case we may need a script to list those things easily. 16:29:50 Pierre: Why? 16:30:08 Atsushi: There are a bunch of test files. 16:30:26 Pierre: They're organised into two directories, which are sufficient for automatic testing. 16:30:35 Atsushi: In any case I need to set some time aside to check it. 16:30:37 Pierre: Ok. 16:32:17 Nigel: Edits needed at the moment are: adding the new tests, and the 2nd validating implementation 16:32:26 -> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/IMSC-HRM-1ED-Implementation-Report Implementation Report 16:32:48 Nigel: If at some stage we need to demonstrate the truth of the emails to the Chair listed under 16:32:56 .. Content producing implementations, I'm sure we can find a way to do that. 16:33:16 .. Anything else on IMSC-HRM? 16:33:28 Pierre: Not for me, thanks for everyone's help and input on this. We're getting super close 16:33:39 .. and hopefully can close this very early next year if not this year. 16:33:52 Topic: DAPT 16:34:48 Subtopic: Rework audio description original and translation languages w3c/dapt#179 16:34:54 github: https://github.com/w3c/dapt/pull/179 16:35:16 Nigel: This has been open since July 31 and has been through an amazing number of iterations, 16:35:21 .. each one making it better than before. 16:35:34 .. I think we're probably about done with it, and would like to know if we can merge it today 16:35:40 .. or if anyone wants more review time. 16:35:59 .. Since the last review the main change is to model the daptm:langSrc attribute better and to 16:36:06 .. define the semantics and constraints better. 16:36:21 .. Those changes are in line with the issue and pull request discussion, I think, 16:36:32 .. but I am aware that Andreas had some reservations. 16:36:37 .. I did try to address those. 16:37:11 q+ 16:37:16 ack at 16:37:30 Andreas: Thanks first for all your work on that pull request. It was an amazing amount of editing 16:37:42 .. work to resolve the different comments. I think it gets better and better. 16:37:57 .. As I signalled, maybe offline, I'm happy with the way forward as described in the comments. 16:38:17 .. It's not just one line, you have to check the whole document. 16:38:43 .. I can review it in the next couple of weeks but if you want to merge it now that's okay. 16:39:16 Nigel: I could merge it and then if you find issues with it then open new issues. 16:39:19 Andreas: That would be okay. 16:39:37 Cyril: I concur with Andreas. I would also like to give it another review, and I can do it tomorrow. 16:40:02 Nigel: OK then I will leave it open and then react based on the result of your review. 16:40:20 Cyril: After my review I will try to implement the solution in my prototype tool to see if there is any 16:40:34 .. problem in our source content. I can do the review first. If I see any problem I will open a new issue. 16:40:39 Nigel: Great, thank you. 16:41:26 SUMMARY: @cconcolato to review, @nigelmegitt to respond accordingly. @andreastai to read through when time allows. 16:41:56 Subtopic: Next steps and Wide Reviews 16:42:04 Cyril: Do we have all the responses? 16:42:07 Nigel: Not quite. 16:42:13 Cyril: We have TAG and i18n. 16:42:48 Nigel: We haven't had the formal response from APA yet. 16:43:03 .. We've been told not to expect a response on Security unless they identified a problem. 16:43:15 Atsushi: If we can resolve all of the issues raised against DAPT then we can state that 16:43:19 .. all HR is finished. 16:43:36 Nigel: Please could you check on the status of those, Atsushi? 16:43:45 Atsushi: Of course, I will do it during winter holiday season. 16:44:39 Nigel: My other question is about the feedback from DVW - do we have a way to complete 16:44:48 .. the conversation with them after the detailed discussion responses? 16:45:03 Cyril: I'm hoping to get a response from them, yes. 16:46:36 Nigel: In terms of tasks, we have some issues that need decisions to be made, 16:46:48 .. at some point we need test suites (not formally until after CR), 16:47:02 .. and there are a couple of PRs open from June that need something doing with them. 16:47:10 Cyril: Those PRs are still on my list! 16:47:41 Topic: Meeting close 16:47:49 Nigel: We have one more meeting this year, on 21st December. 16:48:19 .. We've completed our agenda today. Thank you everyone. [adjourns meeting] 16:48:23 rrsagent, make minutes 16:48:25 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/07-tt-minutes.html nigel 17:04:16 s/We also in the process of adding tests/We are also in the process of adding tests 17:05:56 rrsagent, make minutes 17:05:58 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/07-tt-minutes.html nigel 17:06:22 scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 17:06:27 zakim, end meeting 17:06:28 As of this point the attendees have been Andreas, Pierre, Nigel, Atsushi, Cyril 17:06:28 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 17:06:29 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/07-tt-minutes.html Zakim 17:06:35 I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 17:06:36 Zakim has left #tt 17:06:51 rrsagent, excuse us 17:06:51 I see no action items