14:37:52 RRSAgent has joined #i18n 14:37:57 logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/12/07-i18n-irc 14:38:02 Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference 14:38:06 Chair: Addison Phillips 14:38:14 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/6d544156-352c-46f2-b6ec-383b4e2462fb/20231207T150000/ 14:38:14 clear agenda 14:38:14 agenda+ Agenda Review 14:38:14 agenda+ Action Items 14:38:15 agenda+ Info Share 14:38:17 agenda+ RADAR Review 14:38:19 agenda+ Pending Issue Review 14:38:22 agenda+ Needs-Attention issues 14:38:24 agenda+ AOB? 14:38:44 agenda+ Renaming alreq 14:40:52 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/07-i18n-minutes.html addison 14:53:51 xfq has joined #i18n 14:53:51 present+ Addison 14:56:01 present+ Fuqiao 14:59:31 present+ Atsushi 15:01:06 atsushi has joined #i18n 15:01:37 scribe: xfq 15:01:56 present+ Richard 15:03:11 present+ Bert 15:03:34 JcK has joined #i18n 15:03:56 zakim, take up agendum 1 15:03:56 agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:04:01 agenda? 15:04:27 Hi. Google just dropped a bomb on me that I didn't expect until at least month's end... have to deal with it and won't be able to participate in today's meeting. Sorry for short notice. 15:04:36 addison: are there other agenda additions we need to consider? 15:04:39 zakim, take up agendum 2 15:04:41 agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:05:00 gb, list open actions 15:05:01 Found actions in w3c/i18n-actions: #60, #59, #53, #47, #43, #35, #33, #18, #16, #12, #11, #8, #7, #5, #4 15:05:03 #60 15:05:04 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/60 -> Action 60 follow up with dom about github discussion notifications (on xfq) due 2023-12-07 15:05:24 close #60 15:05:26 Closed -> action #60 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/60 15:05:46 fuqiao: done but unfortunately hard to modify notifications to deal with gh discussions 15:06:09 https://github.com/w3c/jlreq-d/discussions/47#discussioncomment-7777609 15:06:12 ... creating manual process of notifying lists about new discussions 15:06:32 https://github.com/w3c/jlreq-d/discussions/50 15:06:38 scribe+ 15:07:17 atsushi: we need to migrate from REST to GraphQL 15:07:31 q+ 15:07:37 ack next 15:07:57 ... @@1 15:08:24 r12a: I'm getting interested in the idea of using Discussions 15:08:35 ... seems like it could work quite well for what Kida-san had in mind 15:09:01 ... in the first comment there's a proposal 15:09:15 ... and then people could discuss it below in various common threads 15:09:23 ... that seems better than using a wiki 15:09:30 ... using a wiki is kind of difficult 15:09:47 ... the basic problem we have is that you don't get notified 15:09:58 ... unless you subscribed to it 15:09:59 #59 15:09:59 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/59 -> Action 59 follow up with julie rawe on next steps with coga such as a work plan (on aphillips) due 2023-12-07 15:10:08 ... so we can tell them to subscribe 15:10:35 close #59 15:10:37 Closed -> action #59 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/59 15:10:41 #53 15:10:41 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/53 -> Action 53 come up with a set of information CSS want the i18n group to provide support for generic font families (on frivoal, fantasai) due 2023-11-01 15:10:46 #47 15:10:47 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/47 -> Action 47 make the CSSWG aware of Warichu (on frivoal) due 2023-10-04 15:10:52 #43 15:10:53 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/43 -> Action 43 pull together the list of win/mac/etc apis for setting base direction and/or language (on aphillips) due 2023-09-18 15:11:10 #35 15:11:10 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/35 -> Action 35 make the edits of CSS #5478 (on fantasai) due 2023-08-30 15:11:14 #33 15:11:15 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/33 -> Action 33 Close issues marked `close?` or bring to WG for further review (on aphillips) 15:11:46 #18 15:11:47 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/18 -> Action 18 Have informal explanation sessions about counter style translations with csswg members (on frivoal, fantasai) 15:11:51 #16 15:11:51 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/16 -> Action 16 Keep track of line-breaking in Korean for i18n-discuss#11 (on aphillips) 15:11:58 #12 15:11:58 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/12 -> Action 12 Upgrade/edit the explainer to address issues raised by google (on aphillips) 15:12:21 addison: #33, we're still reviewing the needs attentions 15:12:23 q+ 15:12:28 ack next 15:12:39 ... I'm gonna keep this as perennial for us to review 15:13:14 r12a: the thing that was stopping you publishing was the use of a semicolon instead of an ampersand in the echidna file 15:13:25 ... that's something I've stumbled on in the past 15:13:50 ... I was wondering where we got the template for the file 15:14:01 addison: I changed from FPWD to DNOTE 15:14:09 ... I don't think I created the file 15:14:13 ... it was already stale 15:14:22 r12a: OK. Thank you. 15:14:22 #11 15:14:22 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/11 -> Action 11 Triage all css properties to determine which are logical, physical, or na by default (on frivoal) 15:14:30 #8 15:14:31 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/8 -> Action 8 Create pr against canvas formatted text (on aphillips) 15:14:38 Najib has joined #i18n 15:14:41 #7 15:14:42 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/7 -> Action 7 Remind shepherds to tend to their awaiting comment resolutions (Evergreen) (on aphillips, xfq, himorin, r12a, bert-github) 15:14:49 #5 15:14:50 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/5 -> Action 5 Check into how to list questions at the top of a digest and/or improve lang enablement communications (on r12a) 15:15:12 close #5 15:15:14 Closed -> action #5 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/5 15:15:21 #4 15:15:21 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/4 -> Action 4 Work with respec and bikeshed to provide the character markup template as easy-to-use markup (on r12a) 15:16:21 r12a: I have changed my own implementation of that significantly recently 15:16:31 zakim, take up agendum 3 15:16:31 agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:16:52 addison: I published localizable manifest 15:17:08 ... I also pushed xfq's change to the glossary to /TR 15:17:23 q+ 15:17:29 ack next 15:18:21 r12a: I have four days to go next week and then I'm on vacation 15:18:26 ... until the middle of January 15:19:08 zakim, take up agendum 4 15:19:08 agendum 4 -- RADAR Review -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:19:09 ... and thereafter, I will be working 2 days a week 15:19:29 addison: have a nice time 15:19:42 zakim, take up agendum 3 15:19:42 agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:20:00 r12a: yesterday, the W3C announced on a Twitter feed that it was now leaving Twitter 15:20:10 ... and let people go over to Mastodon 15:20:34 ... many new followers 15:21:07 zakim, take up agendum 4 15:21:07 agendum 4 -- RADAR Review -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:21:07 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1 15:21:44 agenda? 15:21:55 zakim, take up agendum 8 15:21:55 agendum 8 -- Renaming alreq -- taken up [from addison] 15:22:00 addison: I have moved a few items that have published the CR over to Completed 15:22:10 ... after checking they had nothing open 15:22:24 https://www.w3.org/International/alreq/ 15:22:48 r12a: xfq noticed the title of the document is "Text Layout Requirements for the Arabic Script" 15:23:06 ... it has been some years and that document hasn't changed 15:23:28 ... it just describes Arabic and Persian 15:23:57 ... it also matches the gap analysis document 15:24:17 ... if we want to we can expand it later 15:24:52 ... although I'm not sure that's a good idea because the amount of stuff you have to do to cover Urdu etc. is huge 15:26:00 Bert: it's a good idea 15:26:14 ... it seems to indeed only talk about the Arabic language and Persian language 15:26:50 xfq: do we need to mention 'Standard Arabic'? 15:27:21 r12a: it's probably better just to say Arabic 15:27:55 ... @@ 15:28:26 RESOLVED: rename alreq to "Arabic & Persian Layout Requirements" 15:29:05 zakim, take up agendum 6 15:29:05 agendum 6 -- Needs-Attention issues -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:29:21 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Aneeds-attention 15:29:42 #1006 15:29:43 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/1006 -> Issue 1006 [not found] 15:29:53 w3c/i18n-activity#1006 15:29:54 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1006 -> Issue 1006 Informal spellings in specifications (by w3cbot) [close?] [tracker] [needs-attention] 15:30:21 close w3c/i18n-activity#1006 15:30:23 Cannot close issue #1006. Forbidden. 15:30:36 addison: xfq looked into the informal spelling thing and made some replies on that 15:30:41 ... I can close it now 15:30:49 w3c/i18n-activity#980 15:30:50 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/980 -> Issue 980 Interaction between tts:writingMode and tts:direction on paragraph element. (by w3cbot) [tracker] [s:ttml] [needs-attention] 15:30:58 xfq: I'll follow up on the W3C Manual of Style 15:31:31 addison: #980 is a tts issue 15:31:32 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/980 -> Issue 980 [not found] 15:31:54 ... the last comment that I had on it was asking atsushi if we should discuss 15:32:50 atsushi: this is actually an issue between the model of CSS and XML-based styles 15:33:45 ... even if timed text does not utilise the CSS model, I still want to get some intermediate model between XML and CSS on this specific point 15:33:53 ... but I have no idea how to make it happen 15:34:51 ... I suppose there could be some model between XML and CSS, it should help WebVTT discussions 15:35:11 ... it's quite hard for TTML 15:35:20 ... to use the same model as the web browser 15:35:47 addison: should we turn this into needs-resolution instead of a tracker or is it okay just as a tracker? 15:36:23 ... do you want an action to come back to us with a description that we could work on? 15:36:50 atsushi: for now there is no way to update TTML to use the CSS model 15:37:23 ... personally I think we should close this discussion and discuss it in WebVTT or IMSC 15:37:34 addison: should we keep this as tracker? 15:38:06 atsushi: it is great to keep this tracker but there is no hope for it to be resolved 15:38:22 ... but it is quite important to keep it as a tracker 15:38:41 ... it is important for future timed text 15:39:35 addison: do we need to engage CSS about that problem? 15:39:48 atsushi: there was a bunch of discussion including florian from CSS 15:39:55 ... but there's no resolution 15:40:23 ... it's quite hard to change its model now 15:41:22 ... from the Team Contact's point of view, I think it won't be supported by TTML 2, but for upcoming specs like WebVTT, we really need to align with the CSS model 15:41:39 addison: should I add it to our agenda for the next call? 15:41:45 atsushi: yes 15:41:52 action: addison to add css+xml for next call with css (see notes about ttml2) 15:41:59 rrsagent, make minutes 15:42:00 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/07-i18n-minutes.html xfq 15:42:06 Created -> action #61 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/61 15:42:10 #w3c/i18n-activity#809 15:42:20 w3c/i18n-activity#809 15:42:21 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/809 -> Issue 809 [css-fonts] limit local fonts to those selected by users in browser settings (or other browser chrome) (by xfq) [tracker] [s:css-fonts] [needs-attention] [i:fonts] 15:43:07 addison: this is related to the fingerprinting issue 15:43:33 ... should we mark this as needs resolution instead of just tracker? 15:43:48 ... privacy thinks it needs resolution 15:44:45 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/5421#issuecomment-1842729401 15:44:46 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/5421 -> Issue 5421 [css-fonts-4] The spec should not allow UAs to ignore user-installed fonts (by r12a) [css-fonts-4] [i18n-needs-resolution] [privacy-needs-resolution] 15:45:02 r12a: I think this issue is the same 15:45:17 ... except the other way around 15:45:28 ... the first issue says you should limit local fonts 15:45:39 ... the second issue says please don't limit local fonts 15:46:07 ... Chris made some changes recently which kind of helped a bit 15:46:21 ... but this didn't satisfy our concerns 15:46:52 addison: we can comment on #4497 to say we think this is a duplicate of #5421 15:46:52 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/4497 -> Issue 4497 [not found] 15:46:52 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/5421 -> Issue 5421 [not found] 15:47:05 w3c/i18n-activity#765 15:47:05 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/765 -> Issue 765 input field placeholders should respect the dir attribute when set to "auto" (by xfq) [tracker] [s:html] [needs-attention] [i:bidi-text] [spec-type-issue] [alreq] [hlreq] [i:interaction] 15:47:07 ... do you want to make that comment? 15:47:09 r12a: OK 15:48:11 addison: there have been related activity where we were fixing a bunch of the controls 15:48:23 ... first question, should this be a needs resolution? 15:48:47 r12a: I personally would think it should be needs resolution 15:49:11 xfq: +1 15:50:49 r12a: we certainly need to add a comment to say RLM doesn't actually do the job you need most of the time 15:51:20 ... I need to reread this 15:52:39 w3c/i18n-activity#590 15:52:40 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/590 -> Issue 590 advance is measured as distance up to left side of character #3994 (by r12a) [tracker] [s:html] [needs-attention] 15:54:35 addison: it actually says to the left side of the character and of course the advance goes the other way when you're doing RTL 15:55:40 https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/4026#issuecomment-420936617 15:55:40 https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/4026 -> Issue 4026 TextMetrics.advances should define more details (by kojiishi) [topic: canvas] [i18n-tracker] 15:57:30 r12a: why are they trying to do this low-level stuff themselves rather than relying on the font? 15:57:37 addison: this is canvas 15:57:44 ... they have a text interface 15:58:01 ... you can do things like get text metrics and measure the text 16:00:05 https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt/issues/34448 says that the "advances" attribute is indeed removed. 16:00:06 https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt/issues/34448 -> Issue 34448 [html/canvas] tests for TextMetrics.advances should not be in WPT as this attribute is not in the spec (by jfkthame) 16:00:56 (modify my action) 16:01:15 addison: it looks like it's not active 16:01:35 ... I'll write to them and keep this as needs attention for now 16:01:48 zakim, take up agendum 7 16:01:48 agendum 7 -- AOB? -- taken up [from agendabot] 16:02:22 rrsagent, make minutes 16:02:23 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/07-i18n-minutes.html xfq 16:02:29 zakim, who is here? 16:02:29 Present: Addison, Fuqiao, Atsushi, Richard, Bert 16:02:29 On IRC I see Najib, JcK, atsushi, xfq, RRSAgent, Zakim, addison, r12a, eemeli, Github, imlostlmao, James1, gonzu_15, clafase, MojGraph, joraboi445, BoKilgore, SintayewGashaw, gb, 16:02:29 ... hadleybeeman, Mek, koji, alastairc, Rachael, bigbluehat, astearns, florian, cwilso, csarven, fantasai, Bert, hsivonen, agendabot 16:02:31 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minute', addison. Try /msg RRSAgent help 16:02:41 regrets+ JcK 16:02:46 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/07-i18n-minutes.html addison 16:11:17 zakim, bye 16:11:17 leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Addison, Fuqiao, Atsushi, Richard, Bert 16:11:17 Zakim has left #i18n