IRC log of aria on 2023-12-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:03:43 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/12/07-aria-irc
18:03:47 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
18:04:18 [Zakim]
Meeting: ARIA WG
18:04:18 [spectranaut_]
meeting: ARIA WG
18:04:18 [spectranaut_]
chair: ValerieYoung
18:04:18 [Adam_Page]
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18:04:18 [spectranaut_]
agendabot, find agenda
18:04:18 [agendabot]
spectranaut_, OK. This may take a minute...
18:04:18 [agendabot]
agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ecffaf8b-8aa7-4acc-b238-6088a86cf12f/20231207T130000/
18:04:18 [agendabot]
clear agenda
18:04:18 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/47UTwJm
18:04:18 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3RsFsRD
18:04:18 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Aweb-platform-tests%2Fwpt+is%3Aopen+label%3Awai-aria%2Caccname&type=pullrequests
18:04:18 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> describe grouping (and naming of the group) for exclusive accordions <details name> https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/509
18:04:18 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Consider a mechanism to associate controls without an explicit grouping https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1721
18:04:18 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> handling multi-selection / selection confirmation of action for menus https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2067
18:04:18 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> aria-controls spec update https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1996
18:05:46 [giacomo-petri_]
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18:05:48 [pkra]
scribe: pkra
18:05:50 [Adam_Page]
present+
18:05:52 [pkra]
zakim, next item
18:05:53 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/47UTwJm -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:05:55 [giacomo-petri_]
present+
18:06:26 [scotto]
present+
18:06:30 [pkra]
spectranaut_: aria 2086 nested headings
18:06:43 [Marcelo_Paiva]
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18:07:03 [jamesn]
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18:07:08 [Rahim]
present+
18:07:14 [Marcelo_Paiva]
present+
18:07:23 [pkra]
jamesc: from a live website. they have different levels, one native, one aria heading. We just didn't know what to do.
18:07:29 [keithamus]
present+
18:07:36 [pkra]
spectranaut_: sounds like we should agenda it
18:07:44 [pkra]
jamesc: I wasn't even sure it's an author error.
18:07:53 [pkra]
jamesn: it should be.
18:08:06 [pkra]
scotto: html won't flag it because it won't take aria roles into account.
18:08:50 [pkra]
spectranaut_: milestone for 2024?
18:09:11 [pkra]
jamesc: more than editorial. jawsTest mentioned that nested elements are not allowed so we could match that.
18:09:45 [pkra]
scotto: I think both authoring guidance and if ARIA more overtly stated what it means now, then aria-in-html could drop the less normative section around this kind of thing
18:09:53 [pkra]
jamesn: can we salvage some of that then?
18:09:56 [pkra]
scotto: yeah. 2024.
18:10:11 [Rahim]
q+
18:10:16 [pkra]
spectranaut_: let's agenda it. any takers?
18:10:22 [pkra]
scotto: will take a look.
18:10:41 [pkra]
spectranaut_: aria 2085.
18:10:54 [pkra]
... customize announcement of state
18:11:02 [pkra]
scotto: in openUI has been a proposal for a switch element.
18:11:10 [pkra]
... competing proposal to HTML
18:11:15 [CoryJoseph]
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18:11:26 [Rahim]
q-
18:11:51 [pkra]
... what they keep on trying to do: a switch with states on both sides (day / night or dark/light).
18:12:16 [CurtBellew]
present+
18:12:21 [pkra]
... so I go to the designers and say "you'll need a label where it's clear what on/off does"
18:12:22 [jamesn]
q+
18:12:41 [pkra]
... push back from designers that that's not natural for, e.g., a.m./p.m.
18:13:00 [pkra]
... I'm not actually sure we should do it.
18:13:43 [pkra]
jamesn: we have opened the path towards a switch. This sounds like a radio button.
18:13:56 [jamesn]
ack me
18:13:56 [pkra]
scotto: yeah, but that leads to similar discussions
18:13:58 [giacomo-petri_]
q+
18:14:29 [pkra]
jamesc: not clear if the proposal is about customizable state or a string that represents the current state of the control.
18:14:37 [pkra]
... I can see jamesn's point for just a label.
18:14:57 [Marcelo_Paiva]
comment: switch with two states = a checkbox, but what if the switch has 3 states (on | unselected | off)?
18:15:04 [pkra]
... iOS and Mac have an API that would fit.
18:15:41 [pkra]
spectranaut_: if it's just about explaining why we don't do this, then 2024 milestone sounds good.
18:15:43 [pkra]
zakim, next item.
18:15:43 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, pkra
18:15:52 [jamesn]
qv?
18:16:34 [pkra]
giacomo: just on jamesn radios. This might be due to the inconsistencies around operation.
18:16:37 [jamesn]
ack giacomo-petri_
18:16:39 [pkra]
zakim, next ietm.
18:16:39 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'next ietm', pkra
18:16:42 [pkra]
zakim, next item.
18:16:42 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3RsFsRD -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:17:02 [pkra]
spectranaut_: 2 PRs on html-aam.
18:17:08 [pkra]
... on text edit
18:17:18 [pkra]
... seems like those have reviewers
18:17:59 [pkra]
... this is all around the discussion about fieldset maxlength
18:18:10 [pkra]
... then there's 2 PRs on DPUB ARIA.
18:18:26 [pkra]
... around deprecated roles.
18:18:41 [pkra]
... seems they are in a good place
18:18:55 [pkra]
jamesc: I'll get to the other one as well. Seems almost editorial.
18:18:59 [pkra]
zakim, next item
18:19:00 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Aweb-platform-tests%2Fwpt+is%3Aopen+label%3Awai-aria%2Caccname&type=pullrequests -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:19:49 [spectranaut_]
https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt/pull/42769
18:19:50 [pkra]
spectranaut_: 42769 seems in a good place.
18:20:05 [pkra]
jamesc: yes, waiting for changes
18:20:06 [pkra]
zakim, next item
18:20:06 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- -> describe grouping (and naming of the group) for exclusive accordions <details name> https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/509 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:21:19 [pkra]
scotto: this is due to the HTML update to allow details elements to accept name attribute
18:21:41 [pkra]
... which adds functionality where only one details element will be displayed at a time.
18:22:10 [pkra]
... nothing has been done to make this new functionality clear as far as accessibility APIs are concerned.
18:22:26 [pkra]
... some suggestions were to imply a grouping and give that a name
18:22:38 [pkra]
... but in aria it's not possible without an explicit grouping
18:22:47 [pkra]
... I'm not sure naming is always necessary or even helpful.
18:23:14 [pkra]
... Steve F has also taken a look and suggested it might be good if the browsers could update the mappings for summary to enumerate them.
18:23:44 [pkra]
... that would avoid adding a new groupings attribute. Instead of additional groupings (section, fieldset etc).
18:23:57 [pkra]
... people seem to agree they want an "x of y" announcement.
18:24:08 [pkra]
... implying that if you interact with one, something will happen to the others.
18:24:23 [pkra]
... and of course this just adds to the existing problems around summary/details.
18:24:38 [Rahim]
q+
18:24:54 [spectranaut_]
ack Rahim
18:25:30 [pkra]
Rahim: this issue impacts [zoom connection problem at scribe]
18:26:22 [pkra]
scotto: there can always be groups of related controls that don't fall into clear groups. E.g., related buttons like a toolbar. There's no way to provide an "x of y" announcement (unless you use a list and have a platform that yields such output)
18:26:30 [Rahim]
the issue impacts multiple user demographics, but conveying position within set as Scott recommended makes sense
18:27:01 [CoryJoseph]
q+
18:27:02 [giacomo-petri_]
q+
18:27:04 [pkra]
... maybe that opens up the can of worms where buttons and controls could be given position-in-set aria semantics so that they could be allowed to expose thos values.
18:27:13 [spectranaut_]
ack CoryJoseph
18:27:16 [pkra]
(thank you, Rahim.)
18:27:38 [pkra]
CoryJoseph: how would naming the grouping be different from encapsulating a section and naming that section?
18:27:55 [pkra]
scotto: I think it comes down to what you want the container be exposed as.
18:27:59 [pkra]
... they want a named group.
18:28:05 [pkra]
... in HTML that would be fieldset.
18:28:30 [pkra]
... the only way in HTML. (except the voldemort attribute)
18:29:07 [StefanS]
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18:29:08 [pkra]
... there's a note "needs to be grouped for accessibility". Then section would have to be named but then that's a landmark and that seems questionable.
18:29:12 [StefanS]
present+
18:29:19 [pkra]
CoryJoseph: and you'd lose the "x of y" aspect.
18:30:00 [pkra]
scotto: right. there was discussion around this. It ends up being a redundancy that you don't really need
18:30:04 [pkra]
CoryJoseph: groups all the way down.
18:30:26 [pkra]
scotto: some consensus that it wasn't always necessary.
18:30:30 [spectranaut_]
ack giacomo-petri_
18:31:06 [pkra]
giacomo: the idea of having this list of elements does not resolve the key point that something unexpected for the users, i.e., something unrelated collapsing.
18:31:47 [jongund_]
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18:31:52 [pkra]
... two different implementations leads to the same announcements. Say, a list of buttons. But one of them would do something unexpected.
18:32:11 [pkra]
scotto: I think they wouldn't announce the same way.
18:32:47 [pkra]
... i.e., button in list item would be announced differently from summary in list item
18:33:17 [pkra]
... but I want to acknowledge that this doesn't solve the whole problem. Maybe there's more that we can do and I'm happy if we want to do that here, but it's a problem that exists everywhere.
18:33:25 [pkra]
... for any collapsing items, e.g., tabpanel.
18:33:46 [Rahim]
q+
18:33:49 [pkra]
... there's an implicit assumption that switching closes the panel but that's not explicit anywhere.
18:34:01 [spectranaut_]
ack Rahim
18:34:20 [pkra]
Rahim: what would be the best user experience for this?
18:34:41 [pkra]
giacomo: I think I'd like to hear something that tells me the other elements will be collapsed.
18:34:51 [Marcelo_Paiva]
q+
18:35:02 [pkra]
... the relationship is important but collapse too
18:35:12 [pkra]
Rahim: when entering the group or activating the item?
18:35:14 [spectranaut_]
ack Marcelo_Paiva
18:35:22 [pkra]
giacomo: when entering the group
18:35:40 [Marcelo_Paiva]
https://designsystem.digital.gov/components/accordion/
18:35:56 [pkra]
Marcelo_Paiva: US design system has an accordeon compent. This has an option for keeping them open or closing them on activation of another
18:36:03 [pkra]
... we have good success with that.
18:36:50 [pkra]
spectranaut_: there seems to be some interest in making "x of y" counting work.
18:37:28 [pkra]
scotto: if an aria-controls relationship was made between all elements, then perhaps AT could do something with that.
18:37:31 [Marcelo_Paiva]
q+
18:37:32 [pkra]
jamesn: but what would it do useful?
18:38:12 [pkra]
scotto: but as Giacomo said, we don't have any parity. Getting beyond "x of y" would be much more than what I had wanted. hard if no platform decided to do that.
18:38:23 [spectranaut_]
q+ spectranaut_
18:39:22 [pkra]
Marcelo_Paiva: seconding Scott. Some use cases from my end: helps users with cognitive disability to collapse all, avoiding walls of text. We then also have "open/collapse all" functionality to help further
18:39:30 [pkra]
spectranaut_: is this an HTML-only change?
18:39:49 [pkra]
scotto: I was hoping for implementer interest to see if this has a chance of getting done.
18:40:04 [pkra]
spectranaut_: we'd have to describe what to expose though
18:40:18 [pkra]
scotto: I'd start with calculating setsize and position.
18:40:29 [pkra]
... we have that but it's scoped to certain elements.
18:40:38 [pkra]
... I assume we could update the platforms to expose it.
18:41:06 [spectranaut_]
s/HTML-only/HTML-AAM only/
18:41:31 [Rahim]
Will defer to James C. who is calling the shots, I'm just here for moral support :)
18:42:32 [pkra]
jamesc: I was somewhat surprised by some of the reactions. I don't have a preference how we expose this. Was there a specific proposal to consider?
18:43:22 [pkra]
scotto: I was looking for confirmation that there's interest. If html-aam exposes the name, then browsers would have to calculate setsize and pos-in-set. Can this property be exposed on an element that wasn't originally spec'ed to expose that.
18:43:42 [pkra]
jamesc: that seems possible for WebKit and I'd assume other engines are similar here.
18:43:55 [pkra]
... AT should also be able to deal with that.
18:44:28 [pkra]
... I wonder if non-sequential elements will be weird, producing effects across the document.
18:44:44 [pkra]
scotto: it wasn't discussed much. More thought of an 80/20 rule.
18:45:16 [pkra]
... so treating it as not a validation problem even if it's not used well.
18:45:48 [pkra]
jamesc: I'd phrase it as HTML flexibility.
18:46:07 [pkra]
scotto: there was also discussion around keyboard control for this but that would fall outside html-aam.
18:46:30 [pkra]
jamesc: we already have some similar controls.
18:47:00 [pkra]
scotto: yeah, how to move between them
18:47:27 [pkra]
jamesc: right. that sounds outside the initial implementations.
18:47:45 [pkra]
... but I can see how something styled like an accordion would make users expect arrow keys.
18:48:04 [pkra]
... if it's more a traditional summary/details, then I wouldn't expect arrow keys
18:48:08 [pkra]
scotto: agree
18:48:35 [pkra]
... I'll start with a change for html-aam, indicate potential places needed to change
18:48:41 [pkra]
zakim, next item
18:48:41 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, pkra
18:48:53 [spectranaut_]
q?
18:48:54 [pkra]
q?
18:48:59 [spectranaut_]
ack Marcelo_Paiva
18:49:01 [spectranaut_]
ack spectranaut_
18:49:04 [pkra]
zakim, next item
18:49:04 [Zakim]
agendum 5 -- -> Consider a mechanism to associate controls without an explicit grouping https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1721 -- taken up [from agendabot]
18:49:15 [pkra]
spectranaut_: ties into previous item
18:49:43 [pkra]
scotto: gets more into the part we discussed around radio buttons earlier
18:50:10 [pkra]
... in HTML you push things inside radio groups. ARIA is a bit less clear there
18:51:06 [pkra]
... I do see a use case to be able to have, e.g., controls in a toolbar, can be grouped even though they're not explicitly done.
18:51:27 [pkra]
spectranaut_: are there cases where the browser can do the work already?
18:52:00 [pkra]
scotto: e.g., the radio button example I think would require guess work from browser to know they're related.
18:52:14 [pkra]
... for the toolbar, arguably anything in the toolbar would be given "x of y"
18:52:32 [pkra]
... but do we always want that or do authors decide?
18:53:20 [pkra]
CoryJoseph: is there really a situation where we don't think authors would want that?
18:53:41 [pkra]
scotto: fair point. I don't know. Anecdotally, some like it and some don't.
18:53:52 [pkra]
CoryJoseph: but that shoulds like something left for AT
18:54:05 [pkra]
jamesc: don't think there's anything that prevents AT from calling out the numbering.
18:54:16 [pkra]
... doesn't feel like a browser specific change
18:54:30 [pkra]
jamesn: but we don't expose this right now in the APIs so they don't calculate that.
18:54:59 [pkra]
jamesc: maybe misunderstanding. If there are five items in the toolbar, they could do that.
18:55:24 [pkra]
jamesn: but do they do the extra work?
18:56:10 [pkra]
... for, say, menus. AAM says that browser should calculate pos-in-set etc and expose that. Should we want AT to expose more than what's exposed? Should they really look through the tree and calculate that?
18:56:44 [pkra]
jamesc: where the default positioning is efficient, it shouldn't need anything extra.
18:56:51 [spectranaut_]
menuitem: https://w3c.github.io/core-aam/#role-map-menuitem
18:57:01 [pkra]
jamesc: but isn't the browser exposing those properties instead of letting AT infer it from tree?
18:57:14 [pkra]
jamesc: I don't think so.
18:57:24 [pkra]
s/jamesc: but/jamesn: but
18:57:26 [pkra]
s/jamesc: but/jamesn: but/
18:57:48 [pkra]
spectranaut_: I don't think we expose it.
18:58:02 [jamesn]
https://www.w3.org/TR/core-aam-1.2/#mapping_additional_position
18:58:18 [pkra]
scotto: from internal discussions, people felt like they'd need to update how the API works.
18:58:33 [pkra]
jamens: [recites spec from link]
18:58:44 [pkra]
s/jamens/jamesn/
18:59:35 [pkra]
jamesc: we can hopefully make that testable in WPT eventually. I don't think it's a real problem for AT.
18:59:57 [pkra]
jamesn: I just don't know how they all work to say
19:00:19 [pkra]
scotto: thinking specifically about toolbar. it's less clear than say menu or list.
19:00:31 [pkra]
jamesn: and then you might have radio buttons in a toolbar.
19:01:30 [pkra]
jamesc: way back when, there was discussions around toolbar. major UI difference between windows, mac, linux.
19:01:37 [pkra]
spectranaut_: at the hour. let's continue
19:02:04 [pkra]
zakim, end meeting
19:02:04 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Adam_Page, giacomo-petri_, scotto, Rahim, Marcelo_Paiva, keithamus, CurtBellew, StefanS
19:02:06 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
19:02:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/07-aria-minutes.html Zakim
19:02:15 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, pkra; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
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