18:59:58 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
19:00:03 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/12/05-aria-apg-irc
19:00:21 <jugglinmike> rrsagent, make log public
19:00:34 <jugglinmike> zakim, start the meeting
19:00:34 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
19:00:36 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
19:01:13 <jugglinmike> meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force Weekly Teleconference
19:01:52 <Jem> Jem has joined #aria-apg
19:02:59 <Jem> rrsagent, make minutes
19:03:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/05-aria-apg-minutes.html Jem
19:03:43 <howard-e> howard-e has joined #aria-apg
19:03:47 <arigilmore> arigilmore has joined #aria-apg
19:03:59 <jugglinmike> present+ jugglinmike
19:04:02 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
19:04:12 <arigilmore> present+
19:04:16 <Jem> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/December-5%2C-2023-Agenda
19:04:22 <Jem> present+
19:09:35 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria-apg
19:10:25 <Jem> present+ Cory
19:10:55 <Jem> present+ Howard
19:11:14 <jugglinmike> topic: Setup and Review Agenda
19:11:47 <jugglinmike> Jem: We'll have meeting next week and one more on the 19th, the following two will be cancelled for the holidays
19:11:57 <jugglinmike> Topic: Status of Site Updates
19:12:11 <jongund_> jongund_ has joined #aria-apg
19:12:14 <jugglinmike> Jem: Next publication: December 19, 2023. Branch cut date: December 18, 2023
19:12:19 <jongund_> present+ jongund
19:12:38 <jugglinmike> Jem: We have to pull requests ready for the next publication. You can find links in the meeting agenda
19:13:02 <jugglinmike> present+ Matt_King
19:13:47 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: A GitHub "check" did not run for one of those, and I don't know why. I'm also concerned that it might represent a larger problem which affects other pull requests
19:13:51 <jugglinmike> howard-e: I'll take a look
19:13:56 <CoryJoseph> CoryJoseph has joined #aria-apg
19:13:58 <jugglinmike> present+ howard-e
19:14:26 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Shawn said there was no problem publishing on the 19th as long as there are only content changes--nothing complicated
19:14:51 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We *do* have one item further on in the agenda related to the structure of the repository, and that seems like it may be too complicated
19:17:58 <Jem> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2807
19:19:32 <jugglinmike> Topic: PR 2839 - set aria-expanded false when menus are closed
19:19:55 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Previously, we had a problem with the preview build
19:20:03 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I verified the toolbar change locally
19:20:11 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: But last night, it still wasn't working in preview
19:20:22 <jugglinmike> howard-e: the issue is a token authorization problem
19:21:05 <jugglinmike> howard-e: Carmen at Bocoup is asking Shawn if it's possible to update this. Hopefully, we can get this fixed today, but it may have to wait until Monday
19:21:29 <jugglinmike> howard-e: There's also some concern about this strategy moving forward. It relies on long-lived tokens
19:21:48 <jugglinmike> howard-e: That's a conversation that needs to happen with WAI. I think Bocoup can lead that conversation.
19:22:22 <jugglinmike> present+ Andrea_Cardona
19:22:39 <jugglinmike> Andrea_Cardona: There's a regression test failing, and I was unsuccessful in my attempts to fix it
19:22:47 <jugglinmike> present+ jongund_
19:22:58 <Jem> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2839#issuecomment-1840740478
19:22:58 <jugglinmike> jongund_: helpfully offered to take a look
19:23:10 <jugglinmike> jongund_: I added some suggestions this morning
19:23:24 <jugglinmike> Andrea_Cardona: Great! I'll take a look after this meeting
19:24:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: All the editorial review is done on this one
19:24:43 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm responsible for the functional review. I'll wait for the preview build problem to be fixed
19:24:55 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Code review is assigned to nobody. Oh!
19:25:01 <jugglinmike> jongund_: I can perform the code review
19:25:08 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Thank you!
19:25:19 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Looks like test review is assigned to Jem
19:25:35 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: there are no other reviews because there are no visual changes
19:25:43 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This could probably land this week. Awesome!
19:26:11 <jugglinmike> jongund_: I'll wait for Andrea_Cardona to make her changes before performing the code review
19:26:19 <jugglinmike> Topic: Issue 2501 - Rating slider redesign
19:26:28 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2831
19:26:38 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm signed up for editorial review here, but I haven't done that, yet
19:27:08 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Looks like Curt has done the functional review, and Ariella_Gilmore has done the visual design review
19:27:11 <jugglinmike> present+ Ariella_Gilmore
19:27:21 <jugglinmike> Ariella_Gilmore: I'll get to the accessibility review this week
19:28:12 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: code review is to be done by Andrea_Cardona
19:29:17 <jugglinmike> Topic: Finish repo restructure
19:29:26 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2869
19:29:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This is another one of those changes where it's focused on the back-end. We don't want the site to regress at all
19:30:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We want people to compare every page of the website in the preview to the corresponding page in production
19:30:17 <Jem> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2702
19:30:18 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That's over 100 pages, so we're going to have to split up the work
19:30:40 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: For more context: in the current architecture, almost all of the images are inserted via scripts during the build process
19:31:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: But the images are content, so we want to control them from the "content" repository. We don't want the build process to insert content
19:31:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This build moves all of that content into the content repository (e.g. 31 SVG files). It changes every page that has at least one image--it adds the reference to the image as a relative link
19:31:57 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Once this lands, we'll have full control over the content from the "content" repository
19:32:18 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We've done this in phases and steps since the launch of the redesign last year. This is the final step in that long process
19:32:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: In the past when we've had to make large changes like this, we've divided up patterns alphabetically
19:33:41 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It appears that the preview for this isn't working right now. Hopefully the preview will be fixed later today, so that if we assign reviewers during this meeting today, then those preview links will be available tomorrow
19:34:03 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It might be a lot to ask to have this all reviewed by Monday, but I think the work will go pretty quickly
19:35:39 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Here's what I have in mind for the reviewers we designate for this work: Go to the production site, load the page, then on the preview, go to that same page in another tab. If they look the same at first glance, then move on to the next page.
19:35:58 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The goal is no differences. If there is a difference, we'd want to know about that and flag it in the pull request
19:37:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If we can get this done by Monday, then we could get it deployed this year.  Otherwise, we'll have to wait until next year because this change is too complicated for us to give to Shawn by the only other publication date this year (December 19)
19:38:54 <jugglinmike> howard-e: Fixing the preview will require assistance from W3C, but it's not clear who is able to help and if they are available today
19:39:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't think we need to review the "About" page. Between the "patterns" pages and the "practices" pages, I think there are about 80 pages to review in total
19:42:08 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: jongund_ can you look at the "patterns" page and then the "patterns" page up through just before "radio group"?
19:42:12 <jugglinmike> jongund_: Sure
19:43:54 <jugglinmike> Ariella_Gilmore: I can take "radio" through "window splitter"
19:44:09 <jugglinmike> Jem: I can review the "practices" pages
19:44:28 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Then we would have everything covered amongst the three of you
19:44:59 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't think there are any images on the index page
19:45:09 <jugglinmike> Jem: And there are no images on the "about" page, either
19:45:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Okay, then I think between jongund_, Ariella_Gilmore, and Jem, I think that covers it!
19:45:37 <jugglinmike> Topic: Issue 2870: HTML labeling guidance
19:46:21 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I was really surprised that there were problems with labeling via encapsulation
19:46:42 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I didn't know that labeling via the "for" attribute was preferred
19:47:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Some of the references are a few years old, but I would imagine this recommendation is still relevant
19:47:31 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Does anyone object to changing our guidance?
19:47:52 <jugglinmike> jongund_: What about radio buttons and checkboxes? Those are the ones that people are naturally going to want to encapsulate
19:48:01 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Well, checkbox is the example that's provided
19:48:46 <Jem> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2870
19:48:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Some of our examples don't follow this guidance, but that allows us to perform interoperability testing, so I wouldn't necessarily recommend changes those
19:50:20 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm shocked because this approach to labeling (wrapping the input and the text with the "label" element) has been around for over a decade
19:50:40 <jongund__> jongund__ has joined #aria-apg
19:50:49 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: But the reporter is saying that Dragon doesn't recognize the input in that case
19:51:03 <jugglinmike> present+ CoryJoseph
19:51:14 <jugglinmike> CoryJoseph: We've seen this in CVS
19:51:33 <jugglinmike> CoryJoseph: Specifically for voice control users on our sites
19:52:26 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I started drafting an alternative pull request to the one that's been offered because the one that's been offered introduces new words and concepts. I don't know if those are necessary
19:53:12 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I would generally prefer to communicate the preference and emphasize it with the sequence that we offer alternatives
19:54:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Hearing no objection to that, I'll have my alternate pull request ready for public review soon
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19:55:07 <jugglinmike> Topic: Tab behavior in disclosure navigation menu
19:55:21 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2866
19:55:37 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The reporter thinks that when you tab out of a disclosure menu, it should close
19:56:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This is not a menu, so I'm not sure I agree. Then again, we've made exceptions in other patterns, so I wonder if folks here agree
19:57:22 <jugglinmike> CoryJoseph: This is a tricky problem because we have to consider whether it needs to cover the misuse of the pattern
19:57:55 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Does anyone agree with the reporter?
19:58:37 <jugglinmike> jongund: I don't like an exception for the patterns, per se, but there's so much confusion over the patterns already...
19:59:05 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: But if we go along with this suggestion, doesn't that exception increase the confusion?
20:00:00 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: An exception like this reduces the differentiation with the "menu", and I wonder if the recommendation to authors for this situation should be to "use the menu pattern, instead"
20:00:08 <jugglinmike> CoryJoseph: I'm on the fence about this
20:01:58 <Jem> Caution!
20:01:58 <Jem> Before considering use of the Menubar Pattern for site navigation, it is important to understand:
20:01:58 <Jem> 
20:01:58 <Jem> The menubar pattern requires complex functionality that is unnecessary for typical site navigation that is styled to look like a menubar with expandable sections or fly outs.
20:02:00 <Jem> A pattern more suited for typical site navigation with expandable groups of links is the Disclosure Pattern. For an example, see Example Disclosure Navigation Menu.
20:02:07 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The "menu bar" pattern page and the "disclosure" pattern page already compliment each other by referencing each other and explaining how to choose between them
20:02:41 <Jem> caution about navigation menubar
20:04:09 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: CoryJoseph if you want to review those two pages, I think your perspective as a new attendee to this meeting would be particularly helpful
20:04:21 <jugglinmike> Zakim, end the meeting
20:04:21 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jugglinmike, arigilmore, Jem, Cory, Howard, jongund, Matt_King, howard-e, Andrea_Cardona, jongund_, Ariella_Gilmore, CoryJoseph
20:04:25 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
20:04:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/12/05-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim
20:04:32 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
20:04:32 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-apg
20:04:32 <jugglinmike> RRSAgent, leave
20:04:32 <RRSAgent> I see no action items