15:58:22 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
15:58:26 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/11/30-rdf-star-irc
15:58:30 <ktk> meeting: RDF-star Working Group Weekly Meeting
15:59:17 <ktk> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/0a6aa6e3-635c-42c2-baba-938c76b6ef01/20231130T120000/
15:59:18 <agendabot> clear agenda
15:59:18 <agendabot> agenda+ Approval of minutes from the last two metings: [1]
15:59:18 <agendabot> agenda+ Proposal for next week's discussion
15:59:18 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of open actions, available at [2]
15:59:18 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of pull requests, available at [3]
15:59:21 <agendabot> agenda+ Issue Triage, available at [4]
15:59:24 <agendabot> agenda+ Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting
16:16:00 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
16:50:18 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
16:56:58 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-star
16:57:16 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
16:57:36 <eBremer> eBremer has joined #rdf-star
16:57:59 <tl> tl has joined #rdf-star
16:58:13 <rubensworks> rubensworks has joined #rdf-star
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16:58:56 <niklasl> niklasl has joined #rdf-star
16:59:30 <fsasaki> fsasaki has joined #rdf-star
17:00:05 <ktk> Regrets: AZ, Dominik_T
17:00:07 <gkellogg> present+
17:00:11 <ktk> present+
17:00:13 <olaf> present+
17:00:14 <ora> ora has joined #rdf-star
17:00:19 <fsasaki> present+
17:00:24 <gtw> present+
17:00:29 <TallTed> TallTed has joined #rdf-star
17:00:30 <rubensworks> present+
17:00:34 <tl> present+
17:00:48 <doerthe> doerthe has joined #rdf-star
17:01:29 <pchampin> present+
17:01:31 <ktk> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:01:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/30-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
17:01:38 <ktk> RRSAgent, make log public
17:01:55 <ktk> Chair: ora:
17:02:00 <doerthe> present+
17:02:08 <ora> present+
17:02:17 <ora> chair: ora
17:02:26 <ktk> Scribe: doerthe:
17:02:33 <enrico> enrico has joined #rdf-star
17:02:36 <enrico> present+
17:02:40 <eBremer> present+
17:03:00 <Tpt> regrets for today meeting
17:03:13 <niklasl> present+
17:03:41 <TallTed> present+
17:03:42 <ktk> Regrets+ Tpt
17:03:43 <TallTed> s/Scribe: doerthe:/Scribe: doerthe/
17:03:45 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:03:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/30-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:03:52 <TallTed> regrets+ tpt
17:03:52 <AndyS> present+
17:04:15 <TallTed> s/regrets for today meeting//
17:04:17 <ktk> s/Chair: ora:/Chair: ora/
17:04:37 <ktk> https://www.w3.org/2023/11/02-rdf-star-minutes.html
17:04:45 <TallTed> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/0a6aa6e3-635c-42c2-baba-938c76b6ef01/20231130T120000/
17:04:45 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:04:45 <agendabot> agenda+ Approval of minutes from the last two metings: [1]
17:04:45 <agendabot> agenda+ Proposal for next week's discussion
17:04:45 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of open actions, available at [2]
17:04:45 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of pull requests, available at [3]
17:04:48 <agendabot> agenda+ Issue Triage, available at [4]
17:04:51 <agendabot> agenda+ Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting
17:05:00 <ora> q?
17:05:01 <TallTed> TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF-star — 2023-11-30 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/0a6aa6e3-635c-42c2-baba-938c76b6ef01/20231130T120000/
17:05:23 <TallTed> Zakim, open item 1
17:05:23 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Approval of minutes from the last two metings: -- taken up [from 1 via agendabot]
17:05:29 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-star
17:05:41 <Souri> present+
17:05:43 <ktk> PROPOSAL: Approve minutes 2023-11-02
17:05:47 <eBremer> im not listed as present last time
17:05:58 <ora> +1
17:06:13 <ktk> +1
17:06:15 <gkellogg> +1
17:06:15 <rubensworks> +1
17:06:16 <olaf> +1
17:06:19 <doerthe> +1
17:06:20 <enrico> +1
17:06:21 <niklasl> +0 (was not present)
17:06:23 <TallTed> +1
17:06:26 <tl> +1
17:06:27 <pchampin> +1
17:06:46 <fsasaki> +1
17:07:03 <ktk> RESOLUTION: Approve minutes 2023-11-02
17:07:16 <ktk> https://www.w3.org/2023/11/16-rdf-star-minutes.html
17:08:02 <draggett> draggett has joined #rdf-star
17:08:09 <ktk> PROPOSAL: Approve minutes 2023-11-16
17:08:13 <niklasl> +1
17:08:15 <doerthe> +1
17:08:16 <olaf> +1
17:08:16 <gtw> +1
17:08:17 <Souri> +0.5 (present only during the first half)
17:08:18 <tl> +1
17:08:20 <ora> +1
17:08:20 <rubensworks> +1
17:08:22 <TallTed> +1
17:08:24 <ktk> +0 (not present)
17:08:25 <enrico> +1
17:08:32 <gkellogg> +1
17:08:37 <pchampin> +1
17:08:41 <ktk> RESOLUTION: Approve minutes 2023-11-16
17:09:02 <ktk> Zakim, next item
17:09:02 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Proposal for next week's discussion -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:10:16 <doerthe> ora: I was lost after the last discussion. Not sure what to do next. I discussed with Adrian. We strongly suggest that we select a course that leads to completion of the work in the expected time
17:10:27 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:10:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/30-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:10:34 <doerthe> ora: but without closing door
17:11:56 <doerthe> ktk: Regarding Thomas' mail, I propose that we try to get into a clear direction. I do not want to open more doors. We should have something ready in summer next year
17:12:10 <doerthe> ktk: we can extend on that afterwards
17:12:25 <doerthe> ktk: that is ora's and my proposal
17:12:43 <ktk> q?
17:13:02 <doerthe> ora: we do not want to dictate a solution, but we want to finish the charter
17:13:39 <TallTed> s|https://www.w3.org/2023/11/02-rdf-star-minutes.html||
17:13:39 <TallTed> s|Approve minutes 2023-11-02|Approve minutes 2023-11-02, https://www.w3.org/2023/11/02-rdf-star-minutes.html|
17:13:39 <TallTed> s|https://www.w3.org/2023/11/16-rdf-star-minutes.html||
17:13:39 <TallTed> s|Approve minutes 2023-11-16|Approve minutes 2023-11-16, https://www.w3.org/2023/11/16-rdf-star-minutes.html|
17:14:00 <fsasaki> q+
17:14:04 <TallTed> q+
17:14:11 <ora> ack fsasaki
17:14:27 <doerthe> ktk: I was asked whether graphs are not allowed as a solution. The charter is on triple terms and we should discuss these first
17:14:42 <tl> q+
17:14:54 <ora> ack TallTed
17:15:00 <doerthe> fsasaki: I'd like to second that. I think a fast solution is important
17:15:56 <doerthe> TallTed: Even though the charter talks about triple terms, but it is possible for the working group to widen the scope. The charter is not binding in that way
17:16:01 <ora> ack tl
17:16:11 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-star
17:16:16 <fsasaki> s/is important/is important also to assure that RDF keeps competitive to other graph related approaches/
17:16:27 <TallTed> q+
17:16:39 <ora> q+
17:16:51 <pfps> present+
17:17:17 <doerthe> tl: I can reduce nested graphs to nested triples. I would like to discuss the possible problems about graph terms. I am not convinced that they are that big. I would like to do that in seperate meeting
17:17:27 <ora> ack TallTed
17:17:45 <pfps> I am totally unconvinced that using nested graphs is "for free".  Where is the complete proposal for this?
17:17:59 <doerthe> tl: My plan was not to go hijack the group to solve the named graph issues, but I think that graphs and triples are related
17:18:16 <ora> ack ora
17:18:52 <doerthe> TallTed: even though graphs and triples are similar froma philosophical point of view, they technically differ
17:19:32 <doerthe> ora: I would like people to think about which compromises they would accept to prepare for next week
17:19:43 <TallTed> +1 "can I live with this?" is a key question for each proposal
17:20:28 <AndyS> q+
17:20:39 <doerthe> ora: do we all agree on that we want to talk about graph terms vs. triple terms and possible compromises next week?
17:20:52 <gkellogg> q+
17:20:54 <ora> ack AndyS
17:20:56 <doerthe> ora: I really hope to reach a decision next week
17:21:25 <pchampin> +1 to AndyS
17:21:30 <doerthe> AndaS: could we make sure that all material is available long before the meeting (24h?)
17:21:54 <doerthe> gKellog: I second that, especially having the time difference in mind
17:22:01 <AndyS> s/AndaS/AndyS/
17:22:02 <olaf> s/AndaS:/AndyS:/
17:22:37 <doerthe> gkellog: we should also think about how we deal with the Christmas break and how we do planning
17:22:50 <olaf> s/gKellog:/gkellogg:/
17:22:51 <AndyS> s/24/48/
17:22:54 <ktk> q?
17:23:02 <tl> q+
17:23:04 <ora> ack gkellogg
17:23:09 <ora> ack tl
17:23:09 <olaf> s/gkellog:/gkellogg:/
17:23:15 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:23:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/30-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:23:22 <gkellogg> s/gKellogg:/gkellogg:/
17:23:30 <doerthe> tl: so we won't have the discussion about named graphs next week?
17:23:52 <doerthe> tl: I would like to have the discussion without pressure
17:24:37 <doerthe> ora: we could discuss through the mailing list and in the meeting
17:25:02 <doerthe> ora: I really want to reach a decision
17:25:10 <ora> q?
17:25:14 <pfps`> pfps` has joined #rdf-star
17:25:22 <doerthe> ora: that includes that we take a decision as a group at some point
17:25:34 <ktk> Zakim, next item
17:25:34 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Review of open actions, available at -- taken up [from 2]
17:25:44 <ktk> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3
17:25:52 <pchampin> q+
17:26:11 <pchampin> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/84
17:26:11 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/84 -> Action 84 1.1 specs should reference 1.2 versions (on pchampin)
17:27:26 <pfps`> q+ to talk about my aciton
17:27:26 <doerthe> pchampin: I investigated on https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/84 which was about links to latest versions
17:27:38 <pfps`> s/aciton/action/
17:27:50 <doerthe> pchampin: the links will be changed
17:28:51 <doerthe> pfps: I worked on updating the use cases. I worked on it and will continue today
17:29:42 <ora> q?
17:29:47 <pchampin> q-
17:29:55 <ora> ack pfps`
17:29:55 <Zakim> pfps`, you wanted to talk about my aciton
17:30:00 <ktk> Zakim, next item
17:30:00 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Review of pull requests, available at -- taken up [from 3]
17:30:09 <olaf> q+
17:30:09 <ktk> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4
17:30:18 <ora> ack olaf
17:30:49 <doerthe> olaf: There is an open request 1032, will you have a look at it Andy?
17:30:57 <doerthe> AndyS: yes
17:31:13 <pchampin> s|1032|w3c/sparql-query#132
17:31:14 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/sparql-query/issues/132 -> Pull Request 132 More accurate definition of the Group operator (by hartig) [spec:editorial]
17:31:55 <AndyS> Apologies for my tardiness on query#132
17:31:56 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/query/issues/132 -> Issue 132 [not found]
17:31:57 <olaf> q+
17:32:02 <doerthe> gkellogg: there is a test for quads I added, if there is no objection, I will merge
17:32:44 <pchampin> s/a test for quads/tests for text-direction in n-quads, turtle and trig
17:33:29 <doerthe> olaf: What do we do for SPARQL 1.2 tests? how do we proceed?
17:33:50 <doerthe> AndyS: are these tests for the repository?
17:34:22 <ktk> q?
17:34:32 <ktk> ack olaf
17:34:37 <gkellogg> q?
17:34:44 <doerthe> AndyS: there is a directory for it which is empty, we can start to fill it. We can follow the structure of the old tests
17:35:12 <doerthe> olaf: do we add the old tests there as well?
17:35:24 <doerthe> AndyS: Only the new ones
17:36:08 <doerthe> gkellogg: what do we do with the tests from [please help]
17:36:57 <doerthe> AndyS: these are premature, we should not add them now
17:37:51 <doerthe> AndyS: all tests need to be manually checked
17:38:04 <doerthe> ora: can we deprecate tests if needed?
17:38:35 <AndyS> s/[please help]/RDF-star Community Group/
17:39:17 <doerthe> gkellogg: I would add some tags, but from experience, that can cause confusion
17:39:37 <niklasl> q+
17:39:46 <ora> ack niklasl
17:40:21 <doerthe> niklasl: we should for sure add tests for the things we change
17:40:59 <ktk> Zakim, next item
17:40:59 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Issue Triage, available at -- taken up [from 4]
17:41:02 <ktk> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/5
17:41:47 <doerthe> ora: how do we do the triage?
17:42:40 <doerthe> gkellogg: we wanted to focus on the tasks with "needs discussion" tags
17:44:00 <ora> q?
17:44:16 <pchampin> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/sparql-results-csv-tsv/issues/10
17:44:17 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/sparql-results-csv-tsv/issues/10 -> Issue 10 TSV: state how to handle special characters in strings (by Tpt) [needs discussion]
17:45:02 <pchampin> discovering this issue right now, but I tend to agree with AndyS
17:46:19 <AndyS> Action: AndyS to follow-up on on issue TSV#10
17:46:26 <gb> I created -> issue #10 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-common/issues/10
17:46:26 <gb> but I could not add the "action" label.
17:46:26 <gb> That probably means I don't have push permission on w3c/rdf-common.
17:46:26 <gb> I created -> issue #11 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-common/issues/11
17:46:26 <gb> but I could not add the "action" label.
17:46:26 <gb> That probably means I don't have push permission on w3c/rdf-common.
17:47:07 <doerthe> AndyS: I will have a look at the issue
17:47:08 <gkellogg> Now in https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/98
17:47:08 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/98 -> Action 98 follow-up on on issue TSV#10 (on ) due 2023-12-07
17:47:33 <pfps`> q+
17:47:39 <pchampin> subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/55
17:47:39 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/55 -> Issue 55 Compare language tags after normalizing to lower case. (by gkellogg) [needs discussion] [spec:enhancement]
17:48:06 <pfps`> q-
17:48:25 <doerthe> gkellogg: the issue is that language tags can be done differently by different implementations
17:48:38 <Souri> In Oracle, we lowercase it.
17:48:52 <doerthe> ora: do we know what the major implementations do with the issue
17:50:37 <doerthe> gkellogg: we do not need to fix that in the abstract syntax
17:50:57 <pchampin> q+
17:51:15 <doerthe> AndyS: does that not break canonicalization?
17:51:26 <doerthe> gkellogg: yes it would
17:51:55 <niklasl> q+
17:51:56 <AndyS> Ontotext GraphDB uses RFC formatting.
17:53:11 <doerthe> gkellogg: we could leave it open for serialisations and fix it in the abstract syntax
17:53:42 <doerthe> ora: Are the issues about comparisons or storage?
17:54:00 <doerthe> gkellogg: comparison is case-insensitve
17:54:45 <doerthe> AndyS: we could say within a concrete system the representation should be consistent
17:55:06 <ora> ack pchampin
17:56:03 <niklasl> q-
17:56:53 <doerthe> pchampin: I wanted to suggest the same as Andy just did. We should only say that two literals only differing in lower vs. upper case letters in their language tags should be the same without dictating what this needs to be
17:57:15 <ora> ack niklasl
17:57:25 <tl> q+
17:57:29 <doerthe> pchampin: we can add that there can be a canonical case
17:57:41 <ora> ack tl
17:57:49 <doerthe> tl: I would like to have a semantic task force
17:58:57 <TallTed> tomorrow currently shows as cancelled. but I will join if it happens. https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/6d0cd306-0be8-4267-865a-6272cc8d9da4/20231201T100000/
17:59:00 <doerthe> enrico: If you want, we can have a meeting. I wanted to write a very concise proposal as well covering the minimal requirements
17:59:21 <ktk> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:59:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/30-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
18:00:09 <doerthe> enrico: I want to propose two possibilities, we could discuss
18:00:47 <doerthe> enrico: I can de-cancel tomorrow's meeting
18:00:56 <olaf> olaf has left #rdf-star
18:01:42 <doerthe> scribe-
18:01:49 <doerthe> not sure, I can join tomorrow
18:10:12 <ktk> RRSAgent, leave
18:10:12 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in https://www.w3.org/2023/11/30-rdf-star-actions.rdf :
18:10:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: AndyS to follow-up on on issue TSV#10 [1]
18:10:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2023/11/30-rdf-star-irc#T17-46-19
18:10:15 <gb> Created -> action #99 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/99
<pchampin> s/metings/meetings/g
<pchampin> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/11/16-rdf-star-minutes.html
<pchampin> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/12/07-rdf-star-minutes.html