18:59:29 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
18:59:33 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/11/28-aria-apg-irc
18:59:38 <Jem> zakim, start meeting
18:59:38 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
18:59:40 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
18:59:51 <Jem> rrsagent, make minutes
18:59:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/28-aria-apg-minutes.html Jem
18:59:59 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria-apg
19:01:56 <jugglinmike> present+ jugglinmike
19:02:01 <Matt_King> present+
19:02:06 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
19:02:07 <Jem> present+
19:03:12 <Matt_King> regrets+ Ari
19:03:27 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria-apg
19:04:10 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg
19:04:10 <jamesn> agenda?
19:04:23 <Matt_King> CHAIR: Jemma
19:04:26 <Jem> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/November-28%2C-2023-Agenda
19:04:30 <CurtBellew> CurtBellew has joined #aria-apg
19:04:30 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make minutes
19:04:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/28-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King
19:05:01 <CurtBellew> present+
19:05:03 <jongund> present+ jongund
19:05:07 <howard-e> howard-e has joined #aria-apg
19:05:12 <howard-e> present+
19:05:18 <jugglinmike> Topic: Setup and Review Agenda
19:05:21 <jongund> Coming, having some issues wuth zoom starting
19:05:35 <jugglinmike> Jem: No meeting on December 26 or January 2 due to winter holidays
19:05:46 <jugglinmike> Topic: Status of Site Updates
19:06:46 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We had a publication at the end of October
19:07:04 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think at this point, it makes sense to try to squeeze as much as we can in before the end of the year
19:07:41 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't know how late Shawn at the W3C can go, but I think the latest Bocoup should plan for is a pull request on December 18th for publication on December 19
19:07:48 <jugglinmike> howard-e: That should work for us
19:08:25 <jugglinmike> dmontalvo: I think that should work on W3C's side, too
19:08:45 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That means we need to have everything wrapped up by Friday, December 15. We'll work toward that, then
19:08:55 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It will be our cut-off for the pull requests
19:09:12 <jugglinmike> Jem: It looks like that's almost twenty days
19:09:29 <jugglinmike> Topic: Issue 2842 - Bug in modal dialog example when accessed on mobile
19:09:49 <jugglinmike> Jem: jongund reviewed; we need one additional reviewer
19:10:05 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This is a CSS change. I don't feel comfortable reviewing it myself
19:10:43 <jugglinmike> The patch is gh-2843
19:10:46 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2843
19:10:56 <jugglinmike> present+ Andrea_Cardona
19:11:11 <jugglinmike> Andrea_Cardona: I can take a look at this. I should be able to do that by the end of the day
19:11:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Sweet!
19:11:25 <jugglinmike> Jem: I'll assign you on the pull request
19:11:35 <jugglinmike> Topic: PR 2839 - set aria-expanded false when menus are closed
19:11:46 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2839
19:11:57 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I did a bunch of work on this last night. I found two areas of concern
19:12:11 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: First, the documentation is changed for toolbar, but not the actual script
19:12:37 <jugglinmike> Jem: I'll take a look at the example you shared
19:13:15 <jugglinmike> s/Jem:/Andrea_Cardona:/
19:15:18 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Second is the tests
19:15:21 <jongund> q+
19:15:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The test message is exactly wrong. It's saying that it's testing to make sure the value is "false"
19:16:09 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The tests need to be updated, but don't forget to update the test message as well
19:16:57 <jugglinmike> Jem: We're missing a bunch of keyboard tests
19:17:25 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We should address that in a separate pull request. In this pull request, we should focus on the change for aria-expanded
19:22:38 <jugglinmike> Topic: Issue 2501 - Rating slider redesign
19:22:51 <jugglinmike> patch available here: PR 2831: Rating Slider Example: Redesign as an input for 10-value satisfaction scale by jongund
19:23:04 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2831
19:23:11 <jugglinmike> jongund: I'm using a media query, now
19:23:19 <jugglinmike> jongund: To support high-contrast
19:23:45 <jugglinmike> jongund: I think we should update the other examples to use that, as well.
19:23:51 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Not on this pull request, please!
19:24:01 <jugglinmike> jongund: Agreed. We should do that as a follow-up
19:25:23 <jugglinmike> jamesn: I can review this one. I've done a lot of work with high-contrast using named colors
19:26:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Does Spectrum have a guide for this that we can roll into our code guide?
19:26:44 <jugglinmike> jamesn: The designers have done a lot of designs for the high-contrast UI, but it mostly just exists publicly in code
19:27:07 <jugglinmike> jamesn: There are some implementation-specific details, so I don't know if you can roll it in directly. But I can definitely take a look
19:27:18 <Jem> Test in Windows High Contrast Mode (HCM):
19:27:18 <Jem> Turn on HCM in Windows Settings - Ease of Access - High Contrast.
19:27:18 <Jem> Open the example in Edge and Firefox (note that Firefox must be started after HCM is on).
19:27:18 <Jem> Test in both High Contast Black and High Contrast White themes.
19:27:18 <Jem> Make sure everything is visible and has suitable contrast in both themes. Pay particular attention to Non-text contrast, i.e. check that UI components and their states (e.g. focus/hover), as well as any graphical objects, have enough contrast with any adjacent colors.
19:27:20 <Jem> You can use Color Contrast Analyzer to test contrast.
19:27:20 <Jem> Update on "Styling for Windows high contrast with new standards for forced colors" on September 2021 by Microsoft Edge Team
19:27:59 <jugglinmike> jamesn: It would be good to have one overriding issue for high-contrast review, and then to address it in a series of patches as needed
19:30:46 <jugglinmike> [jamesn shows the group how to simulate high-contrast mode in Chrome using the browser's built-in developer tools]
19:31:13 <jugglinmike> Jem: I can document that: "How to use Google Developer Tools to check high-contrast mode"
19:31:34 <jugglinmike> jamesn: You can probably find a link for that and include the link in the documentation
19:32:05 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: But will this only work if the web page is using the media query?
19:32:37 <jugglinmike> jamesn: No, it also simulates the native high-contrast mode
19:32:58 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think we're in the clear here regarding the responsive design stuff. I think all the issues are resolved
19:33:24 <jugglinmike> jongund: I think so. I've made a few changes based on using the CSS media query, so it would probably be worth having someone check it out.
19:33:40 <jugglinmike> jongund: jamesn will do that when he reviews, so that's one reviewer
19:35:21 <jugglinmike> Jem: Is there room to use flexbox to handle responsiveness?
19:37:21 <jugglinmike> Jem: for some viewport sizes, we have a lot of empty space running along the right edge of the page
19:37:28 <jugglinmike> jongund: That's a problem with the template
19:37:35 <jugglinmike> howard-e: I wasn't aware of that problem
19:37:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We should report that issue with the template
19:41:31 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It sounds like there is also a non-visible click target which stretches beyond the length of the slider
19:42:10 <jugglinmike> jongund: That sounds plausible. Is the reporter saying that this is a deficiency in the user experience?
19:42:20 <Jem> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2831#issuecomment-1795095317
19:42:29 <Jem> Mike Gower's comment
19:42:38 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: They are reporting that it is "not elegant"
19:43:19 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Should we take this feedback into account in this pull request?
19:44:11 <jugglinmike> jongund: Instead of changing the visual design or visual affordances, I could just remove the click area
19:47:37 <jugglinmike> Topic: Feed Example Revisions
19:47:45 <Jem> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2775
19:47:50 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2775
19:48:11 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: previously, we had problems with the preview related to iframes. That seems to be resolved, though I don't know how it got resolved
19:48:44 <jugglinmike> howard-e: The pull request that was generated in the build repo wasn't referencing the fix. Essentially, it needed to be rebased
19:49:48 <jugglinmike> howard-e: this won't be a problem for future pull requests that use an iframe because those future pull requests will naturally be based on top of the fix (that is, the fix which was originally missing from this one)
19:50:13 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I see some functional problems with this. I can write the details in a comment
19:51:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think we might want to change the example so that if someone is tabbing, they have a way to jump out of the feed. I have an idea for this; I can write that as a comment on the pull request, as well.
19:52:51 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: JAWS is doing something interesting now (somehow trapping the focus inside the feed), which NVDA is not.
19:53:35 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm already signed up for editorial review. We need someone to do functional review and visual design review
19:53:46 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Also test and code
19:53:51 <jugglinmike> Jem: I can do visual review
19:54:31 <jugglinmike> Jem: I can do accessibility review, as well (I think this includes visual contrast)
19:54:50 <jugglinmike> howard-e: I can perform test review and code review
19:55:23 <jugglinmike> CurtBellew: I can do functional review
19:55:29 <jugglinmike> Jem: Thank you!
19:56:16 <jugglinmike> Topic: Issue 2626 - Guidance on focusability of col and row headers in grids
19:56:29 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2626
19:57:20 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Our current guidance is that if you make a grid with row and column headers, and those headers don't have any function (e.g. sort), then because they will be read by the AT, they don't need to be focusable
19:57:45 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The reporter suggests that the column headers should always be navigable even if they don't offer any particular functionality
19:58:49 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: They seem to say that when the headers are not navigable, that prevents screen readers from finding the information. That isn't accurate
19:59:15 <jugglinmike> Jem: What is the advantage of allowing focus to the column header?
19:59:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The downside of allowing focus is that it introduces another step in navigation to reach the data
20:00:00 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If you want to spell out the column header, you can just go into reading mode
20:00:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If you can't do anything with the column header, I don't see the value in allowing focus to visit there
20:01:26 <jugglinmike> CurtBellew: Our libraries always have focusable headers, but they mostly have associated functionality.
20:02:25 <jugglinmike> Jem: There may be a misunderstanding about screen readers requiring focusability to discover or announce the column headers
20:03:49 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Our current guidance says that you can make column headers focusable if you want to, but you don't need to make them focusable if they don't have any associated functionality
20:04:10 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We don't have a sortable example, and we really should
20:04:47 <jugglinmike> Jem: We do have that, actually. It's described by a note for the datagrid example
20:05:25 <jugglinmike> Zakim, end the meeting
20:05:25 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jugglinmike, Matt_King, Jem, CurtBellew, jongund, howard-e, Andrea_Cardona
20:05:27 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
20:05:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/28-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim
20:05:34 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
20:05:35 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-apg
20:05:49 <jugglinmike> RRSAgent, leave
20:05:49 <RRSAgent> I see no action items