15:59:52 RRSAgent has joined #tt 15:59:57 logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/11/23-tt-irc 15:59:57 RRSAgent, make logs Public 15:59:58 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 16:00:12 Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/269 16:00:22 Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/11/09-tt-minutes.html 16:00:26 scribe: nigel 16:00:27 pal has joined #tt 16:00:56 Present: Nigel, Matt, Pierre 16:01:06 Regrets: Andreas, Cyril 16:01:14 MattS has joined #tt 16:01:16 Present+ Gary 16:01:21 Chair: Gary, Nigel 16:03:20 Topic: This meeting 16:03:28 Present+ Atsushi 16:03:47 Nigel: On the agenda today we have: 16:04:03 .. Some issues and pull requests relating to IMSC-HRM 16:04:17 .. The Registry pull request for DAPT 16:04:18 atsushi has joined #tt 16:04:29 .. There may be some other details about those two specs to look at too 16:04:43 .. Is there any other business, or points to make sure we cover within those topics? 16:05:13 Topic: IMSC-HRM 16:05:51 Nigel: I'm a bit sheepish that I'm just raising issues at the moment when we said we are about 16:05:55 .. to request exit from CR. 16:06:53 .. The background is I only just got around to doing implementation work for it and that helped 16:06:57 .. me spot some things. 16:07:47 .. One of the changes was a clarification about glyph processing in IMSC-HRM itself. 16:07:53 Pierre: I think it's a good clarification 16:08:37 -> https://github.com/w3c/imsc-hrm/pull/71 Clarify the behavior for duplicate glyphs w3c/imsc-hrm#71 16:09:01 Nigel: I think we could discuss if that's purely editorial or needs 2 week review 16:09:11 Pierre: I think the risk of closing today is minimal given where we are. 16:09:18 .. I would support merging it today. 16:11:32 Nigel: [shares diff on zoom] 16:11:42 .. Any objections to merging today? 16:11:51 group: no objections 16:12:11 Nigel: I think we have adequate consensus for that, please go ahead and merge it. 16:12:14 Pierre: doing that now 16:13:17 Pierre: On issue 69 I think it's worth adding a note and would like your opinion 16:13:39 -> https://github.com/w3c/imsc-hrm/issues/69 Note on document changes at every frame of the related video w3c/imsc-hrm#69 16:13:58 Pierre: This is related to converting from 608. The HRM document references 608 16:14:02 .. in the context of the glyph cache. 16:14:11 .. At first I thought this could be the subject of a separate conversion document, 16:14:26 .. but since there's a reference I plan to add an informative note where the spec talks 16:14:29 .. about 608 and 708. 16:14:51 Gary: That makes sense to me. I've seen lots of related issues where naive implementations 16:14:56 .. make a change on every character. 16:15:06 Pierre: I tried to write the note a couple of times yesterday. 16:15:20 .. Rather than broadly discussing conversion, I think it's best to say that the HRM does not 16:15:24 .. support one document per field. 16:15:34 .. At some point we could write a WG Note with guidelines for conversion. 16:15:42 Gary: There is an old document for 608 and 708 into WebVTT. 16:15:54 .. It's probably worth brushing it off and updating it or using it as inspiration for a new document, 16:16:02 .. and including both IMSC and WebVTT. 16:16:19 Pierre: My other favourite problem is exact region sizing for the number of characters. 16:17:01 .. I'll propose a PR with that note. 16:17:12 .. The other thing we need to address is 2 outstanding issues in the CR of IMSC-HRM. 16:17:19 .. The first is image profile being at risk. 16:17:30 .. I'm pretty comfortable with removing it before we move forward. 16:17:35 .. I've seen zero interest. 16:17:41 .. We can always add it back in the future. 16:17:52 .. If someone has a significant objection it would be good to know. 16:18:08 .. Unless there's new information I recommend removing support for image profile from this version of IMSC-HRM. 16:18:55 .. The second is, in section 5 relating to the complexity of drawing span elements with background colour. 16:19:06 .. The way IMSC-HRM is currently specified is the way it's been forever. 16:19:28 .. I had concerns that this would fail documents that contain a large number of spans with background colour. 16:19:36 .. So far, in all the tests that I've seen, it's never been an issue. 16:19:51 .. I'm tempting to err on the side of no change and closing #5 as "will not fix". 16:20:31 -> https://github.com/w3c/imsc-hrm/issues/5 span elements are included in NBG(R_i) w3c/imsc-hrm#5 16:20:59 Pierre: I think we can note in the implementation report that we have seen no documents that 16:21:10 .. conform to image profile, in support of removing that feature. 16:21:33 .. Secondly, that outstanding issue #5, where the HRM as currently written has not resulted in issues 16:21:45 .. with background colour, so I'm comfortable with closing as will not fix. 16:21:59 Nigel: I want to spend time reminding myself about issue 5. 16:22:22 .. I have no objection to removing the at-risk image profile feature. 16:22:54 .. I think there are people using image profile, but they haven't been engaged with the HRM. 16:23:05 Pierre: I agree, I think they use it in closed systems and the HRM is not relevant for them. 16:23:27 Nigel: It would be nice to have a positive statement about that; 16:23:38 .. working on lack of feedback is a weaker position to be in. 16:23:53 Pierre: It's really easy to plug back in if we need to, without affecting anyone else that was happy. 16:24:06 .. That's a different situation for issue 5. 16:24:55 Nigel: I see that issue 51 is assigned to me, I think I need to double check that and hopefully close with no change. 16:25:09 Pierre: We should try to plan on requesting transition before the end of the year. 16:25:54 Nigel: Then we need a resolution in our call in two weeks' time, so that the Decision review period is 16:26:02 .. over by the time of the following meeting. 16:26:40 Subtopic: IMSC-HRM Tests 16:27:26 Nigel: I raised two issues, and we have pull requests for both. 16:27:39 .. The first was #3 where there were p elements with no associated region. 16:27:45 .. I wondered if it was deliberate. 16:27:59 Pierre: Remembering my process for creating them, I'm pretty sure it was a copy/paste error. 16:28:07 Nigel: Ok, we have an open pull request for that. 16:28:32 .. Then the other one was about having the tests be conformant with more sub-profiles. 16:28:54 .. In particular EBU-TT-D, but 2 of the tests also aren't conformant IMSC 1.0.1 because they 16:29:10 .. use prohibited features e.g. textShadow that are permitted in v1.1. 16:29:23 .. I opened a pull request for that also. 16:30:13 -> https://github.com/w3c/imsc-hrm-tests/pull/6 Make tests EBU-TT-D compatible w3c/imsc-hrm-tests#6 16:30:41 Nigel: I take it from your approval that you agree they don't make any substantive difference, these changes. 16:30:44 Pierre: Correct. 16:31:39 Nigel: For tests, I think we can probably go ahead and merge soon. 16:31:46 .. Anyone want extra review time for these? 16:31:53 group: no 16:34:14 Nigel: For the test documents that cannot be IMSC 1.0.1 or EBU-TT-D conformant I just added an XML comment 16:34:17 .. to explain that. 16:34:26 Pierre: I'm happy to merge both of these. 16:34:43 .. I'd prefer to do them both in order 16:34:53 Nigel: That's fine I'll rebase the second one after the first is merged, after the call. 16:34:56 Pierre: OK thanks. 16:35:46 Topic: DAPT 16:36:01 Nigel: We got a positive HR review from TAG. 16:36:29 .. We are still waiting for APA and Security 16:36:48 .. APA has almost completed, they are just doing a CfC to check if they want to ask for an 16:37:07 .. increased emphasis on client side players offering audio description mixing options to users, 16:37:13 .. for example to change the levels. 16:37:29 .. I've told them we might do that anyway, because it's a good idea. 16:37:54 Atsushi: For Security review, usually they almost never provide review comments, so usually 16:38:03 .. we can pass without comment from security to go to CR. 16:38:20 Nigel: Oh, that's annoying, ok. At least a "we have finished" response would be nice. 16:38:43 Atsushi: I plan to open a CR transition request issue when Editors and Chairs are satisfied to go to CR 16:38:55 .. and we have positive HR and WR responses. 16:39:04 Nigel: Good, yes, thank you, that would be great. 16:39:16 Atsushi: Don't wait for the Security review in order to proceed. 16:39:27 Nigel: Ok, we won't, thank you. 16:40:42 .. There's one pull request to look at, which I hope to merge today. 16:40:53 MattS has joined #tt 16:40:56 -> https://github.com/w3c/dapt/pull/196 Add inline Registry Section w3c/dapt#196 16:41:03 .. Thank you for the review comments. 16:41:24 .. The one late change is in the requesting a change section, thanks to Atsushi's comments. 16:43:01 .. [shows commit ef4ac7e8293fb83891e5717ed7599cea734c8515 on zoom] 16:43:18 .. I'm getting "that's an improvement nods" from Matt and Gary. Atsushi? 16:43:27 Atsushi: I believe that's a great change, makes things clearer. 16:43:50 Nigel: In that case I will go ahead and merge this following enough review time, unless anyone 16:43:55 .. wants to ask for more time now. 16:50:04 group: no request for more time. 16:50:18 Nigel: That's all on DAPT for today. 16:50:22 Topic: Meeting Close 16:50:44 Nigel: Thanks all, we've completed our agenda for today. See you in 2 weeks. [adjourns meeting] 16:50:47 rrsagent, make minutes 16:50:49 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/23-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:55:06 scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 16:55:10 zakim, end meeting 16:55:10 As of this point the attendees have been Nigel, Matt, Pierre, Gary, Atsushi 16:55:12 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 16:55:13 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/23-tt-minutes.html Zakim 16:55:49 I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 16:55:49 Zakim has left #tt 16:57:59 rrsagent, excuse us 16:57:59 I see no action items