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14:57:58 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/11/20-epub-fxl-irc
14:57:58 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:57:59 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), gpellegrino
14:58:28 <gpellegrino> meeting: FXL TF, 20 Nov 2023
14:58:59 <gpellegrino> present+
15:00:42 <gautier> present+
15:01:57 <SimonPRH> SimonPRH has joined #epub-fxl
15:02:07 <SimonPRH> present+
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15:02:29 <jgriggs> present+
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15:02:38 <CharlesL> present+
15:02:41 <CircularKen> present+
15:04:07 <gautierchomel> present+
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15:04:48 <gautierchomel> scribe+
15:05:10 <gpellegrino> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/2592
15:05:23 <gpellegrino> Preview: https://cdn.statically.io/gh/w3c/epub-specs/fxl-editorial-2/epub33/fxl-a11y/index.html
15:05:43 <gpellegrino> Diff: https://services.w3.org/htmldiff?doc1=https://labs.w3.org/spec-generator/%3Ftype=respec%26url=https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/epub33/fxl-a11y/index.html&doc2=https://labs.w3.org/spec-generator/%3Ftype=respec%26url=https://cdn.statically.io/gh/w3c/epub-specs/fxl-editorial-2/epub33/fxl-a11y/index.html
15:06:45 <gautierchomel> gpellegrino: this is last Wendy proposal. Is there any comment suggestion feedback? We can take 5 bminutes to read the Legibility section which is the major improvement here.
15:09:17 <gautierchomel> q+
15:10:53 <gpellegrino> scribe+
15:11:12 <gpellegrino> gautierchomel: I was lost by the list of success criteria
15:11:23 <gpellegrino> ... then the list is retaken in subsections
15:11:42 <gpellegrino> ... I would prefer to have one subsession for Sussess Criteria
15:12:12 <gpellegrino> ... or we want to keep the Success Criteria together, then I would remove the first list
15:12:28 <SimonPRH> q+
15:12:36 <gpellegrino> ack gautierchomel
15:12:40 <gpellegrino> ack SimonPRH
15:13:33 <gautierchomel> SimonPRH: I might have lost a part of the discussion related to the removing of font related considerations.
15:14:09 <gautierchomel> gpellegrino: yes, font faces are not in WCAG requirements.
15:14:53 <gautierchomel> SimonPRH: that seems to me it shpould be in fxl guidelines because we can't change the font here.
15:15:00 <CharlesL> q+
15:15:42 <gpellegrino> ack CharlesL
15:15:51 <sueneu> sueneu has joined #epub-fxl
15:16:01 <sueneu> present+
15:16:39 <gautierchomel> CharlesL: proposing a font instead of another may be diplomaticaly complex
15:18:38 <sueneu> p+
15:18:59 <gautierchomel> gpellegrino: maybe it could be usefull to add links to the WCAG success criteria to help the uinderstanding like it's done in 2.5.2.2. If we agree on that, shall we add that on the other sections?
15:19:28 <CircularKen> q+
15:19:40 <gpellegrino> ack CircularKen
15:20:08 <CharlesL> q+
15:20:19 <gautierchomel> CircularKen: yes, i feel that's a good idea to have link to the riules we are refering to.
15:20:37 <sueneu> q+
15:20:58 <gautierchomel> gpellegrino: is someone available this week to make proposals?
15:21:10 <gpellegrino> ack CharlesL
15:21:54 <gautierchomel> CharlesL: we all know fxl has issues, are we saying that clearly here that we can't reach wcag 2.2AA?
15:22:12 <CircularKen> q+
15:22:22 <gpellegrino> ack sueneu
15:23:03 <gautierchomel> sueneu: i'm willing to help but I don't understand the mecanism to contribute to this document.
15:23:10 <JonasLillqvist> q+
15:23:13 <gpellegrino> ack CircularKen
15:23:44 <CharlesL> q+
15:23:54 <gpellegrino> ack JonasLillqvist
15:24:10 <gautierchomel> CircularKen: WCAG A is achievable, not AA because of resize / reflow.
15:25:37 <gautierchomel> JonasLillqvist: most of the sections under legibility are actually not specific to fxl if you look at to visual adjustement, there yes we have specific fxl things, but not in visual design where we see things that are true for reflowable epub too.
15:25:46 <gpellegrino> ack CharlesL
15:26:36 <CircularKen> q+
15:26:41 <gpellegrino> ack CircularKen
15:26:43 <SimonPRH> q+
15:28:04 <CharlesL> q+
15:28:28 <gautierchomel> CircularKen: the complexity of fxl layouts imposes to go deeper in graphic design best practices like legibility. Also I've understood that multiple span is a problem for screen readers is that still the case?
15:28:31 <gautierchomel> q§
15:28:33 <gautierchomel> q+
15:28:53 <gautierchomel> q-
15:29:48 <gautierchomel> gpellegrino: it depends on the settings of the screen reader. But problem with span is when you change text display, it breaks. We can mention span difficulties in visual more than in screen reader section.
15:30:22 <gpellegrino> gautierchomel: we had this problem on TTS in thorium for quite a while
15:30:36 <gpellegrino> ... but now it's fixed
15:31:23 <gpellegrino> q?
15:31:32 <gpellegrino> ack SimonPRH
15:32:44 <gpellegrino> q+
15:33:14 <CircularKen> q+
15:33:15 <gpellegrino> ack CharlesL
15:33:40 <gautierchomel> SimonPRH: back on wcag A target, we shall not make it too central but rather referencing where it is relevant. To make sure that people still want to do the best possible work.
15:35:11 <gpellegrino> ack CircularKen
15:35:12 <gautierchomel> CharlesL: line reader changes line colors to help reading. It will break up at every tag breaking the content. They might have insights on the issues they faced. I will ask them.
15:36:09 <gautierchomel> CircularKen: we could say "AA minus reflowable".
15:37:02 <CharlesL> s/line reader/Bee Line Reader
15:37:11 <gpellegrino> https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG22/quickref/?versions=2.1#reflow
15:37:18 <gautierchomel> gpellegrino: there are still open questions but technically wa can say a pdf is AA compiant (the how to guide says that a success criteria will be written for pdf), we could say the same.
15:37:20 <gautierchomel> q+
15:38:10 <CharlesL> Here is the website for BeeLine Reader https://www.beelinereader.com/
15:39:10 <gpellegrino> ack gautierchomel
15:39:14 <CircularKen> q+
15:39:30 <gpellegrino> gautierchomel: I think we should clearly say that FXL is fixed and cannot reflow
15:39:55 <gpellegrino> ... the fact that all the rest can be AA should be underlined
15:40:12 <SimonPRH> Q+
15:40:18 <gpellegrino> ... we should focus on what is possible and don't foul the reader
15:41:46 <gpellegrino> ... this leads again on how to add reflowable content to FXL
15:42:14 <CircularKen> "There are ongoing discussions about transforming visual publication into reflowable textual content for complete AA compliance. Whilst these are not in production yet, by creating our fixed-layout to  AA we are preparing our files in the best way for these future developments."
15:42:17 <gpellegrino> ack gpellegrino
15:42:22 <gpellegrino> ack CircularKen
15:43:16 <gpellegrino> +1
15:43:19 <gautierchomel> CircularKen: how about that line of text clarifying?
15:43:21 <gautierchomel> +1
15:43:27 <sueneu> +1
15:43:35 <gpellegrino> ack SimonPRH
15:43:35 <JonasLillqvist> +1
15:43:35 <CircularKen> There are ongoing discussions about transforming visual publications into reflowable textual content for complete AA compliance. Whilst these are not in production yet, by creating our fixed-layout to  AA where possible we are preparing our files in the best way for these future developments.
15:44:26 <gpellegrino> q+
15:44:31 <gautierchomel> SimonPRH: this document is to say the state of the art of fxl accessibility. We should be clear in what is achievable.
15:44:45 <gpellegrino> ack gpellegrino
15:45:35 <gautierchomel> gpellegrino: what if we say per criteria how difficult it is to achieve (simple medium, complex)?
15:47:11 <gautierchomel> gautierchomel: it's a great idea, but how to achieve that without naming one or other tool?
15:48:46 <gautierchomel> gpellegrino: to resume, i see open questions : refactoring the document per success criteria? ; do we want to stay on WCAG A line base or also mention AA (i feel we are on the second) : do we have the possibility to mention a difficulty level?
15:49:17 <SimonPRH> +1
15:49:22 <sueneu> +1
15:49:23 <CharlesL> +1 to merge
15:49:24 <CircularKen> q+
15:49:27 <gautierchomel> gpellegrino: then we have a proposal from Ken we'll summit. Is that ok for everyone if we merge the actual wendy's work
15:49:30 <gautierchomel> +1
15:49:34 <gpellegrino> ack CircularKen
15:50:31 <gautierchomel> CircularKen: there's also an open question on the font (should we mention Font again)
15:52:01 <gautierchomel> gpellegrino: ok, i'll add that to the next agenda.
15:54:45 <gautierchomel> gpellegrino: thanks, see you next week.
15:55:08 <gpellegrino> zakim, end meeting
15:55:08 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been gpellegrino, gautier, SimonPRH, jgriggs, CharlesL, CircularKen, gautierchomel, sueneu
15:55:10 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:55:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/20-epub-fxl-minutes.html Zakim
15:55:18 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, gpellegrino; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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15:55:31 <gpellegrino> rrsagent, make logs public
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