IRC log of wot-td on 2023-11-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:03:42 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #wot-td
15:03:46 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/11/15-wot-td-irc
15:08:16 [mjk]
mjk has joined #wot-td
15:09:04 [dape]
dape has joined #wot-td
15:11:01 [kaz]
meeting: WoT-WG - TD-TF
15:11:06 [kaz]
chair: Ege
15:11:31 [kaz]
present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Ege_Korkan,Daniel_Peintner, Jan_Romann, Luca-Barbato, Mahda_Noura, Michael_Koster
15:12:56 [kaz]
agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#November_15.2C_2023
15:13:33 [kaz]
q+
15:13:42 [kaz]
ack k
15:13:50 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #wot-td
15:15:11 [dape]
scribe: dape
15:16:08 [dape]
<Ege walking through Agenda>
15:16:38 [dape]
TOPIC: Organizational
15:16:56 [dape]
SUBTOPIC: Minutes
15:17:03 [dape]
-> https://www.w3.org/2023/10/25-wot-td-minutes.html
15:17:20 [dape]
EK: Minutes look good -> minutes are approved
15:17:36 [dape]
SUBTOPIC: TD Call Slot
15:18:22 [dape]
EK: Who should be present in calls?
15:18:22 [mjk]
q?
15:18:35 [dape]
.... McCool cannot join (always)
15:18:49 [dape]
... editors vs. moderators
15:19:06 [kaz]
q+
15:19:08 [dape]
... moderators should be joining the calls
15:19:34 [dape]
Kaz: Do we need feedback/discussion with McCool?
15:19:46 [dape]
EK: McCool is editor
15:19:57 [dape]
... anyhow, he cannot join
15:20:18 [kaz]
s/feedback/feedback from/
15:20:23 [kaz]
ack k
15:20:25 [dape]
... prioritize moderators & staff to filter out slots
15:20:55 [kaz]
present+ Luca_Barbato
15:21:01 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:21:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/15-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:21:21 [dape]
... possible times in CET
15:21:25 [kaz]
rrsagent, make log public
15:21:28 [dape]
... Monday 14-17
15:21:50 [dape]
... Tuesday 14-15
15:21:53 [dape]
q+
15:22:03 [kaz]
present- Luca-Barbato
15:22:05 [kaz]
rrsagent, make log public
15:22:08 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:22:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/15-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:22:46 [dape]
s/14-15/13-15
15:23:08 [kaz]
present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima
15:23:32 [dape]
... Wednesday 14-18 (do not want same slot again)
15:23:46 [kaz]
q+
15:23:50 [kaz]
ack d
15:23:53 [dape]
... Thursday 15-16
15:24:05 [dape]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:24:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/15-wot-td-minutes.html dape
15:24:37 [dape]
EK: Will send Doodle poll
15:24:47 [dape]
Kaz: Okay with creating doodle poll
15:25:18 [dape]
... if we need McCool, current slot would work as well
15:25:35 [dape]
... is he available in all slots?
15:25:39 [dape]
EK: No
15:26:33 [dape]
Koster: McCool mentioned we should not decide based in his availability
15:26:44 [dape]
Kaz: In that case the current slot now seems fine
15:26:57 [dape]
EK: A bit late in Japan
15:27:23 [dape]
Koster: Compromise is to schedule 1 hour at another time
15:27:46 [dape]
EK: Okay, lets add current slot to Doodle
15:27:54 [kaz]
s/lets/let's/g
15:27:58 [kaz]
ack k
15:28:26 [dape]
... ideally we pick 2 times 1 hour slot
15:28:48 [dape]
TOPIC: Ongoing General Topics
15:29:03 [dape]
EK: Small things on TD 1.1 Publication
15:29:17 [dape]
... readme fix, see https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1915
15:29:28 [dape]
... I think we can merge it
15:30:03 [dape]
EK: Small PR on resources, see https://github.com/w3c/wot-resources/pull/14
15:30:12 [kaz]
s/Wednesday 14-18 (do not want same slot again)/Wednesday: 16-18/
15:30:23 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:30:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/15-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:30:30 [dape]
... carry over changes from TD to resources
15:31:13 [dape]
EK: Merging
15:31:13 [kaz]
q+
15:31:44 [dape]
Kaz: Question on TD draft and resources
15:31:44 [dape]
... agreed to move forward in main call
15:31:44 [dape]
... these are the final changes, correct?
15:31:44 [mjk]
q?
15:31:48 [dape]
EK: Yes, didn't touch html
15:31:58 [mahda-noura]
present+ Mahda_Noura
15:32:03 [dape]
Kaz: Ideally resources should not be changed anymore.. for a while
15:32:07 [dape]
EK: Agree
15:32:19 [dape]
TOPIC: Binding Templates
15:32:26 [kaz]
present+ Dogan_Fennibay
15:32:46 [dape]
EK: Dogan is here
15:32:58 [kaz]
s/TOPIC: Binding Templates/topic: Intro from Dogan/
15:33:04 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:33:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/15-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:33:11 [dape]
DF: Working at Siemens, Building infrastructure
15:33:40 [dape]
EK: Guide document: https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/298
15:34:18 [Ege]
https://w3c.github.io/wot-binding-templates/bindings/protocols/bacnet/#uri-variables-0
15:34:18 [dape]
... BACnet PR - URI Variables: https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/309
15:34:18 [kaz]
i|Guide docu|topic: Binding Templates|
15:34:21 [dape]
EK: Opinions have been collected in issue
15:34:52 [dape]
... discussions where to put information from application layer
15:35:21 [kaz]
i|Guide|subtopic: PR 298|
15:35:36 [dape]
... initial idea from Dogan to still keep it in URI variable
15:36:02 [dape]
DF: Talked with Klaus Hartke also
15:36:07 [kaz]
i|#uri|subtopic: PR 309|
15:36:28 [dape]
... what is a good example for URI variables
15:37:01 [dape]
... for property affordance
15:37:01 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:37:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/15-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:37:08 [dape]
EK: Example 32 from TD is service, not a thing.. correct
15:37:21 [mjk]
q?
15:37:26 [kaz]
ack k
15:37:30 [dape]
... use case ... filter big chunk of data
15:37:52 [mjk]
q+
15:37:53 [dape]
... some solutions out there use uri variables to choose time frame
15:38:22 [dape]
MK: at IETF, URI variable create new resource
15:38:38 [dape]
... separate resource
15:38:41 [dape]
... like alternate syntax
15:39:16 [dape]
ack mjk
15:40:18 [dape]
... existing resources need to be accommodated by TD that use URI variables
15:40:47 [dape]
... maybe it should be discouraged ... it is kind of a dilemma
15:40:55 [mjk]
ack mjk
15:41:11 [dape]
EK: 2 ways to use URI variables
15:41:26 [dape]
... really like new resources in path
15:41:52 [dape]
... second, parameter to existing resource
15:42:17 [dape]
DF: Concerns
15:42:38 [dape]
... will BACnet accept change
15:42:52 [dape]
... I think they are tolerant... need to go to the other groups
15:43:07 [dape]
... second, protocol specific ?
15:43:17 [dape]
... main question
15:43:36 [dape]
... URI variable for me is to retrofit existing device
15:43:45 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:43:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/15-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:44:16 [dape]
... need to allow for customization
15:44:40 [mjk]
q?
15:44:54 [dape]
... graceful degradation
15:45:38 [dape]
... in building automation there is prioritization and BACnet allows it
15:45:58 [kaz]
-> https://w3c.github.io/wot-binding-templates/bindings/protocols/bacnet/index.html#examples BACnet Binding Template - 7. Examples
15:46:21 [dape]
... requirements belongs to domain
15:46:23 [mjk]
q+
15:46:34 [luca_barbato]
luca_barbato has joined #wot-td
15:46:37 [dape]
... fixed priority is not sensible
15:46:38 [luca_barbato]
q+
15:46:45 [Ege]
qq+
15:46:52 [dape]
... URI variable gives this freedom
15:47:28 [dape]
... protocol level, not affordance level
15:48:04 [dape]
... write priority is important to us
15:48:28 [dape]
EK: covIncrement is not really a URI variable ...
15:48:48 [dape]
... Luca proposed a different term
15:49:08 [dape]
DF: URI scheme can change ... for TD 1.1
15:49:19 [dape]
... could have better solution in TD2
15:49:27 [dape]
q?
15:49:29 [dape]
ack Ege
15:49:29 [Zakim]
Ege, you wanted to react to mjk
15:50:24 [dape]
EK: an alternative is to have covIncrement on affordance level
15:50:51 [dape]
Koster: creating URI schema is an option
15:51:02 [dape]
... in real systems there might not be conflicts
15:51:37 [dape]
... I think it makes sense ... to create standardized extensions
15:52:20 [dape]
... write priority is a domain requirement
15:52:26 [dape]
... we could add that as well
15:52:57 [dape]
ack mjk
15:53:17 [dape]
... some applications might use fixed priority
15:53:41 [dape]
... maybe this is not a good enough solution
15:53:59 [dape]
DF: Discussed with Klaus
15:54:07 [dape]
... standard parameter
15:54:23 [dape]
... WoT is domain independent
15:54:37 [dape]
... topic for TD 2.0
15:54:55 [dape]
MK: Yes, we need to find a way to accommodate that in 2.0
15:55:06 [dape]
... somehow a missing feature
15:55:56 [mjk]
ack mjk
15:56:05 [dape]
LB: Let's clarify what URI variables is
15:56:25 [dape]
... problem I am seeing ... additional concept
15:56:33 [dape]
... should be part of protocol detail
15:57:25 [dape]
... URI variables is additional fields to data schema
15:57:40 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:57:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/15-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:57:54 [dape]
... for specific BACnet problem .. like write priority
15:59:25 [dape]
... being pragmatic .. use dataSchema
15:59:58 [kaz]
-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/issues/302 related Issue 302 - URI Variable for BACnet
16:00:33 [mjk]
q?
16:00:35 [dape]
ack luca_barbato
16:01:11 [dape]
LB: Suggest to make it as simple as possible
16:01:38 [dape]
DF: Thanks for the comments, I have to leave...
16:02:00 [kaz]
[ Dogan leaves ]
16:02:22 [dape]
EK: Comment to Luca ...
16:02:46 [dape]
... <showing scripting API code>
16:03:13 [dape]
.... should not change for other protocols
16:03:25 [dape]
LB: At the moment the devices are BACnet only ...
16:03:35 [dape]
... let's go with an easy solution
16:03:46 [mjk]
q+
16:04:05 [dape]
... should work on solving this in 2.0
16:07:22 [dape]
MK: for different priority levels one could create a different resource
16:07:33 [dape]
EK: I see
16:08:04 [dape]
MK: my other point, for GET and OBSERVE there is no dataSchema we can send
16:08:36 [dape]
... URI variables allows to send this kind of data
16:09:05 [dape]
... not sure if we can use additionalSchema
16:09:33 [mjk]
ack m
16:09:43 [dape]
EK: I will close PR 309
16:09:59 [dape]
.. create new PR and add warning (as suggested by Luca)
16:10:02 [dape]
LB: +1
16:11:03 [mjk]
q?
16:11:16 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:11:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/15-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:11:24 [mjk]
scribenick: mjk
16:11:38 [mjk]
topic: td.next
16:12:27 [mjk]
subtopic: PR# 1919
16:12:45 [mjk]
ege: addresses tooling issue
16:13:24 [mjk]
mahda: explains figure describing the toolchain
16:15:41 [kaz]
i|addresses|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1919 PR 1919 - WoT toolchain diagram added|
16:16:25 [mjk]
madha: actors are represented in the top left of each task box
16:16:31 [kaz]
q+
16:17:08 [mjk]
... step ordering is represented in the top right of each task box
16:17:46 [mjk]
q?
16:25:52 [dape]
q+
16:26:25 [mjk]
kaz: the one big diagram could be split into phases with an explanation for each phase
16:26:35 [luca_barbato]
q+
16:26:42 [Ege]
ack k
16:27:00 [mjk]
ege: there are relationships
16:27:30 [mjk]
kaz: some parts like ontology processing could be separately described
16:27:55 [mjk]
mahda: there could still be an overview from end to end
16:29:21 [mjk]
dape: the whole idea is to document the current behavior and dependencies, the complexity is because it is complex and we do need to simplify the workflow
16:30:25 [JKRhb]
JKRhb has joined #wot-td
16:30:34 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:30:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/15-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:31:11 [mjk]
luca: if the plan is to make the process simpler, this is a good place to start as-is. it's a clear picture of the shortcomings
16:31:17 [JKRhb]
+1
16:31:31 [kaz]
q+
16:31:38 [kaz]
ack d
16:31:39 [mjk]
ege: So it's better to spend the time simplifying the process rather than optimize the diagram
16:31:39 [kaz]
ack l
16:32:00 [mjk]
... schema generation is missing
16:32:41 [mjk]
... we should indicate which files are important for deliverables
16:33:32 [mjk]
mahda: there is arrow notation on the chart to indicate inputs and outputs that go into the spec
16:33:50 [mjk]
... could generate a legend to describe these
16:34:07 [mjk]
ege: it would help to have a legend
16:34:26 [Ege]
q?
16:35:52 [mjk]
kaz: If we want to improve the workflow, we should generate a manual, a concise description of what we want to change
16:36:53 [mjk]
... to clarify what the procedure is
16:38:29 [mjk]
... for generating the documents from th einitial inputs
16:38:39 [mjk]
s/th e/the /
16:41:45 [mjk]
ege: are we ready to merge this?
16:43:00 [mjk]
subtopic: work item document
16:43:29 [Ege]
https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/1d64478f426c74fdd0f1d2f7b85374cab2faef3c/planning/ThingDescription/work-items.md
16:43:39 [mjk]
ege: we reduced redundancy in the document
16:45:37 [kaz]
-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/1157 wot PR 1157 - Reorganize work items
16:45:44 [mjk]
s/work/PR# 1157 - work/
16:46:08 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:46:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/15-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:46:15 [mjk]
ege: any objections to merging?
16:46:19 [Ege]
q?
16:46:28 [kaz]
ack k
16:46:55 [mjk]
... merged
16:46:56 [kaz]
s/PR# 1157 - work/work/
16:46:57 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:46:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/15-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:47:18 [kaz]
s/subtopic: work item document/subtopic: PR# 1157 work item document/
16:47:20 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:47:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/15-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:47:36 [mjk]
ege: we need to move the binding work to its own section below
16:48:50 [mjk]
subtopic: PR #1150
16:49:29 [mjk]
jan: task was to summarize existing registry mechanisms
16:49:58 [mjk]
... summarize the content and the process for each registry
16:50:26 [mjk]
... then a general summary of points we need to consider
16:50:59 [kaz]
[ Mahda leaves ]
16:51:17 [mjk]
... maybe there are some more categories but this is a first step
16:51:49 [mjk]
ege: looks like Xpointer is an outlier
16:51:58 [kaz]
i|task was|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/1150 wot PR 1150 - Expand analysis of "Custom Registry Mechanism Registries"|
16:52:05 [mjk]
jan: it's an early example and bare bones
16:52:05 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:52:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/15-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:53:15 [mjk]
ege: other questions, which are most recent and which are active?
16:54:34 [Ege]
q?
16:55:11 [kaz]
q+
16:55:58 [mjk]
... what about updating entries and versioning?
16:56:13 [kaz]
i|task was|->https://github.com/JKRhb/wot/blob/extend-custom-registry-analysis/registry-analysis/Readme.md Rendered Readme.md|
16:56:15 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:56:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/15-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:58:19 [mjk]
ege: it might be important to have a policy of new versions for updates
16:58:43 [mjk]
kaz: another question is what can be learned and applied to our solution
16:59:27 [mjk]
ege: when we get the other inputs we can review them all together
17:00:27 [mjk]
... this PR looks good, will look at it for another week.
17:01:13 [mjk]
jan: will look at adding a table of comparisons
17:01:21 [mjk]
q?
17:01:29 [kaz]
ack k
17:01:51 [mjk]
ege: any more comments?
17:01:57 [mjk]
... any other business?
17:02:08 [mjk]
... adjourned
17:02:13 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:02:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/15-wot-td-minutes.html kaz