15:03:42 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wot-td
15:03:46 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/11/15-wot-td-irc
15:08:16 <mjk> mjk has joined #wot-td
15:09:04 <dape> dape has joined #wot-td
15:11:01 <kaz> meeting: WoT-WG - TD-TF
15:11:06 <kaz> chair: Ege
15:11:31 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Ege_Korkan,Daniel_Peintner, Jan_Romann, Luca-Barbato, Mahda_Noura, Michael_Koster
15:12:56 <kaz> agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#November_15.2C_2023
15:13:33 <kaz> q+
15:13:42 <kaz> ack k
15:13:50 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #wot-td
15:15:11 <dape> scribe: dape
15:16:08 <dape> <Ege walking through Agenda>
15:16:38 <dape> TOPIC: Organizational
15:16:56 <dape> SUBTOPIC: Minutes
15:17:03 <dape> -> https://www.w3.org/2023/10/25-wot-td-minutes.html
15:17:20 <dape> EK: Minutes look good -> minutes are approved
15:17:36 <dape> SUBTOPIC: TD Call Slot
15:18:22 <dape> EK: Who should be present in calls?
15:18:22 <mjk> q?
15:18:35 <dape> .... McCool cannot join (always)
15:18:49 <dape> ... editors vs. moderators
15:19:06 <kaz> q+
15:19:08 <dape> ... moderators should be joining the calls
15:19:34 <dape> Kaz: Do we need feedback/discussion with McCool?
15:19:46 <dape> EK: McCool is editor
15:19:57 <dape> ... anyhow, he cannot join
15:20:18 <kaz> s/feedback/feedback from/
15:20:23 <kaz> ack k
15:20:25 <dape> ... prioritize moderators & staff to filter out slots
15:20:55 <kaz> present+ Luca_Barbato
15:21:01 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:21:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/15-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:21:21 <dape> ...  possible times in CET
15:21:25 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
15:21:28 <dape> ... Monday 14-17
15:21:50 <dape> ... Tuesday 14-15
15:21:53 <dape> q+
15:22:03 <kaz> present- Luca-Barbato
15:22:05 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
15:22:08 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:22:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/15-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:22:46 <dape> s/14-15/13-15
15:23:08 <kaz> present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima
15:23:32 <dape> ... Wednesday 14-18 (do not want same slot again)
15:23:46 <kaz> q+
15:23:50 <kaz> ack d
15:23:53 <dape> ... Thursday 15-16
15:24:05 <dape> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:24:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/15-wot-td-minutes.html dape
15:24:37 <dape> EK: Will send Doodle poll
15:24:47 <dape> Kaz: Okay with creating doodle poll
15:25:18 <dape> ... if we need McCool, current slot would work as well
15:25:35 <dape> ... is he available in all slots?
15:25:39 <dape> EK: No
15:26:33 <dape> Koster: McCool mentioned we should not decide based in his availability
15:26:44 <dape> Kaz: In that case the current slot now seems fine
15:26:57 <dape> EK: A bit late in Japan
15:27:23 <dape> Koster: Compromise is to schedule 1 hour at another time
15:27:46 <dape> EK: Okay, lets add current slot to Doodle
15:27:54 <kaz> s/lets/let's/g
15:27:58 <kaz> ack k
15:28:26 <dape> ... ideally we pick 2 times 1 hour slot
15:28:48 <dape> TOPIC: Ongoing General Topics
15:29:03 <dape> EK: Small things on TD 1.1 Publication
15:29:17 <dape> ... readme fix, see https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1915
15:29:28 <dape> ... I think we can merge it
15:30:03 <dape> EK: Small PR on resources, see https://github.com/w3c/wot-resources/pull/14
15:30:12 <kaz> s/Wednesday 14-18 (do not want same slot again)/Wednesday: 16-18/
15:30:23 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:30:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/15-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:30:30 <dape> ... carry over changes from TD to resources
15:31:13 <dape> EK: Merging
15:31:13 <kaz> q+
15:31:44 <dape> Kaz: Question on TD draft and resources
15:31:44 <dape> ... agreed to move forward in main call
15:31:44 <dape> ... these are the final changes, correct?
15:31:44 <mjk> q?
15:31:48 <dape> EK: Yes, didn't touch html
15:31:58 <mahda-noura> present+ Mahda_Noura
15:32:03 <dape> Kaz: Ideally resources should not be changed anymore.. for a while
15:32:07 <dape> EK: Agree
15:32:19 <dape> TOPIC: Binding Templates
15:32:26 <kaz> present+ Dogan_Fennibay
15:32:46 <dape> EK: Dogan is here
15:32:58 <kaz> s/TOPIC: Binding Templates/topic: Intro from Dogan/
15:33:04 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:33:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/15-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:33:11 <dape> DF: Working at Siemens, Building infrastructure
15:33:40 <dape> EK: Guide document: https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/298
15:34:18 <Ege> https://w3c.github.io/wot-binding-templates/bindings/protocols/bacnet/#uri-variables-0
15:34:18 <dape> ... BACnet PR - URI Variables: https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/309
15:34:18 <kaz> i|Guide docu|topic: Binding Templates|
15:34:21 <dape> EK: Opinions have been collected in issue
15:34:52 <dape> ... discussions where to put information from application layer
15:35:21 <kaz> i|Guide|subtopic: PR 298|
15:35:36 <dape> ... initial idea from Dogan to still keep it in URI variable
15:36:02 <dape> DF: Talked with Klaus Hartke also
15:36:07 <kaz> i|#uri|subtopic: PR 309|
15:36:28 <dape> ... what is a good example for URI variables
15:37:01 <dape> ... for property affordance
15:37:01 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:37:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/15-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:37:08 <dape> EK: Example 32 from TD is service, not a thing.. correct
15:37:21 <mjk> q?
15:37:26 <kaz> ack k
15:37:30 <dape> ... use case ... filter big chunk of data
15:37:52 <mjk> q+
15:37:53 <dape> ... some solutions out there use uri variables to choose time frame
15:38:22 <dape> MK: at IETF, URI variable create new resource
15:38:38 <dape> ... separate resource
15:38:41 <dape> ... like alternate syntax
15:39:16 <dape> ack mjk
15:40:18 <dape> ... existing resources need to be accommodated by TD that use URI variables
15:40:47 <dape> ... maybe it should be discouraged ... it is kind of a dilemma
15:40:55 <mjk> ack mjk
15:41:11 <dape> EK: 2 ways to use URI variables
15:41:26 <dape> ... really like new resources in path
15:41:52 <dape> ... second, parameter to existing resource
15:42:17 <dape> DF: Concerns
15:42:38 <dape> ... will BACnet accept change
15:42:52 <dape> ... I think they are tolerant... need to go to the other groups
15:43:07 <dape> ... second, protocol specific ?
15:43:17 <dape> ... main question
15:43:36 <dape> ... URI variable for me is to retrofit existing device
15:43:45 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:43:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/15-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:44:16 <dape> ... need to allow for customization
15:44:40 <mjk> q?
15:44:54 <dape> ... graceful degradation
15:45:38 <dape> ... in building automation there is prioritization and BACnet allows it
15:45:58 <kaz> -> https://w3c.github.io/wot-binding-templates/bindings/protocols/bacnet/index.html#examples BACnet Binding Template - 7. Examples
15:46:21 <dape> ... requirements belongs to domain
15:46:23 <mjk> q+
15:46:34 <luca_barbato> luca_barbato has joined #wot-td
15:46:37 <dape> ... fixed priority is not sensible
15:46:38 <luca_barbato> q+
15:46:45 <Ege> qq+
15:46:52 <dape> ... URI variable gives this freedom
15:47:28 <dape> ... protocol level, not affordance level
15:48:04 <dape> ... write priority is important to us
15:48:28 <dape> EK: covIncrement is not really a URI variable ...
15:48:48 <dape> ... Luca proposed a different term
15:49:08 <dape> DF: URI scheme can change ... for TD 1.1
15:49:19 <dape> ... could have better solution in TD2
15:49:27 <dape> q?
15:49:29 <dape> ack Ege
15:49:29 <Zakim> Ege, you wanted to react to mjk
15:50:24 <dape> EK: an alternative is to have covIncrement on affordance level
15:50:51 <dape> Koster: creating URI schema is an option
15:51:02 <dape> ... in real systems there might not be conflicts
15:51:37 <dape> ... I think it makes sense ... to create standardized extensions
15:52:20 <dape> ... write priority is a domain requirement
15:52:26 <dape> ... we could add that as well
15:52:57 <dape> ack mjk
15:53:17 <dape> ... some applications might use fixed priority
15:53:41 <dape> ... maybe this is not a good enough solution
15:53:59 <dape> DF: Discussed with Klaus
15:54:07 <dape> ... standard parameter
15:54:23 <dape> ... WoT is domain independent
15:54:37 <dape> ... topic for TD 2.0
15:54:55 <dape> MK: Yes, we need to find a way to accommodate that in 2.0
15:55:06 <dape> ... somehow a missing feature
15:55:56 <mjk> ack mjk
15:56:05 <dape> LB: Let's clarify what URI variables is
15:56:25 <dape> ... problem I am seeing ... additional concept
15:56:33 <dape> ... should be part of protocol detail
15:57:25 <dape> ... URI variables is additional fields to data schema
15:57:40 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:57:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/15-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
15:57:54 <dape> ... for specific BACnet problem .. like write priority
15:59:25 <dape> ... being pragmatic .. use dataSchema
15:59:58 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/issues/302 related Issue 302 - URI Variable for BACnet
16:00:33 <mjk> q?
16:00:35 <dape> ack luca_barbato
16:01:11 <dape> LB: Suggest to make it as simple as possible
16:01:38 <dape> DF: Thanks for the comments, I have to leave...
16:02:00 <kaz> [ Dogan leaves ]
16:02:22 <dape> EK: Comment to Luca ...
16:02:46 <dape> ... <showing scripting API code>
16:03:13 <dape> .... should not change for other protocols
16:03:25 <dape> LB: At the moment the devices are BACnet only ...
16:03:35 <dape> ... let's go with an easy solution
16:03:46 <mjk> q+
16:04:05 <dape> ... should work on solving this in 2.0
16:07:22 <dape> MK: for different priority levels one could create a different resource
16:07:33 <dape> EK: I see
16:08:04 <dape> MK: my other point, for GET and OBSERVE there is no dataSchema we can send
16:08:36 <dape> ... URI variables allows to send this kind of data
16:09:05 <dape> ... not sure if we can use additionalSchema
16:09:33 <mjk> ack m
16:09:43 <dape> EK: I will close PR 309
16:09:59 <dape> .. create new PR and add warning (as suggested by Luca)
16:10:02 <dape> LB: +1
16:11:03 <mjk> q?
16:11:16 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:11:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/15-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:11:24 <mjk> scribenick: mjk
16:11:38 <mjk> topic: td.next
16:12:27 <mjk> subtopic: PR# 1919
16:12:45 <mjk> ege: addresses tooling issue
16:13:24 <mjk> mahda: explains figure describing the toolchain
16:15:41 <kaz> i|addresses|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1919 PR 1919 - WoT toolchain diagram added|
16:16:25 <mjk> madha: actors are represented in the top left of each task box
16:16:31 <kaz> q+
16:17:08 <mjk> ... step ordering is represented in the top right of each task box
16:17:46 <mjk> q?
16:25:52 <dape> q+
16:26:25 <mjk> kaz: the one big diagram could be split into phases with an explanation for each phase
16:26:35 <luca_barbato> q+
16:26:42 <Ege> ack k
16:27:00 <mjk> ege: there are relationships
16:27:30 <mjk> kaz: some parts like ontology processing could be separately described
16:27:55 <mjk> mahda: there could still be an overview from end to end
16:29:21 <mjk> dape: the whole idea is to document the current behavior and dependencies, the complexity is because it is complex and we do need to simplify the workflow
16:30:25 <JKRhb> JKRhb has joined #wot-td
16:30:34 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:30:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/15-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:31:11 <mjk> luca: if the plan is to make the process simpler, this is a good place to start as-is. it's a clear picture of the shortcomings
16:31:17 <JKRhb> +1
16:31:31 <kaz> q+
16:31:38 <kaz> ack d
16:31:39 <mjk> ege: So it's better to spend the time simplifying the process rather than optimize the diagram
16:31:39 <kaz> ack l
16:32:00 <mjk> ... schema generation is missing
16:32:41 <mjk> ... we should indicate which files are important for deliverables
16:33:32 <mjk> mahda: there is arrow notation on the chart to indicate inputs and outputs that go into the spec
16:33:50 <mjk> ... could generate a legend to describe these
16:34:07 <mjk> ege: it would help to have a legend
16:34:26 <Ege> q?
16:35:52 <mjk> kaz: If we want to improve the workflow, we should generate a manual, a concise description of what we want to change
16:36:53 <mjk> ... to clarify what the procedure is
16:38:29 <mjk> ... for generating the documents from th einitial inputs
16:38:39 <mjk> s/th e/the /
16:41:45 <mjk> ege: are we ready to merge this?
16:43:00 <mjk> subtopic: work item document
16:43:29 <Ege> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/1d64478f426c74fdd0f1d2f7b85374cab2faef3c/planning/ThingDescription/work-items.md
16:43:39 <mjk> ege: we reduced redundancy in the document
16:45:37 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/1157 wot PR 1157 - Reorganize work items
16:45:44 <mjk> s/work/PR# 1157 - work/
16:46:08 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:46:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/15-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:46:15 <mjk> ege: any objections to merging?
16:46:19 <Ege> q?
16:46:28 <kaz> ack k
16:46:55 <mjk> ... merged
16:46:56 <kaz> s/PR# 1157 - work/work/
16:46:57 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:46:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/15-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:47:18 <kaz> s/subtopic: work item document/subtopic: PR# 1157  work item document/
16:47:20 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:47:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/15-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:47:36 <mjk> ege: we need to move the binding work to its own section below
16:48:50 <mjk> subtopic: PR #1150
16:49:29 <mjk> jan: task was to summarize existing registry mechanisms
16:49:58 <mjk> ... summarize the content and the process for each registry
16:50:26 <mjk> ... then a general summary of points we need to consider
16:50:59 <kaz> [ Mahda leaves ]
16:51:17 <mjk> ... maybe there are some more categories but this is a first step
16:51:49 <mjk> ege: looks like Xpointer is an outlier
16:51:58 <kaz> i|task was|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/1150 wot PR 1150 - Expand analysis of "Custom Registry Mechanism Registries"|
16:52:05 <mjk> jan: it's an early example and bare bones
16:52:05 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:52:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/15-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:53:15 <mjk> ege: other questions, which are most recent and which are active?
16:54:34 <Ege> q?
16:55:11 <kaz> q+
16:55:58 <mjk> ... what about updating entries and versioning?
16:56:13 <kaz> i|task was|->https://github.com/JKRhb/wot/blob/extend-custom-registry-analysis/registry-analysis/Readme.md Rendered Readme.md|
16:56:15 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:56:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/15-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:58:19 <mjk> ege: it might be important to have a policy of new versions for updates
16:58:43 <mjk> kaz: another question is what can be learned and applied to our solution
16:59:27 <mjk> ege: when we get the other inputs we can review them all together
17:00:27 <mjk> ... this PR looks good, will look at it for another week.
17:01:13 <mjk> jan: will look at adding a table of comparisons
17:01:21 <mjk> q?
17:01:29 <kaz> ack k
17:01:51 <mjk> ege: any more comments?
17:01:57 <mjk> ... any other business?
17:02:08 <mjk> ... adjourned
17:02:13 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:02:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/15-wot-td-minutes.html kaz