14:52:05 RRSAgent has joined #i18n 14:52:10 logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/11/09-i18n-irc 14:52:17 Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference 14:52:25 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/6d544156-352c-46f2-b6ec-383b4e2462fb/20231109T150000/ 14:52:25 clear agenda 14:52:25 agenda+ Agenda Review 14:52:25 agenda+ Action Items 14:52:27 agenda+ Info Share 14:52:29 agenda+ RADAR Review 14:52:29 Chair: Addison Phillips 14:52:31 agenda+ Pending Issue Review 14:52:34 agenda+ Generic Font Families 14:52:36 agenda+ AOB? 14:52:37 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/09-i18n-minutes.html addison 14:53:09 xfq has joined #i18n 14:58:46 present+ Addison, Fuqiao 15:01:11 present+ Richard 15:08:14 present+ Bert 15:09:00 scribe: xfq 15:09:03 zakim, take up agendum 1 15:09:03 agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:09:06 agenda? 15:09:30 zakim, take up agendum 2 15:09:30 agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:09:41 Found actions in w3c/i18n-actions: #58, #57, #56, #55, #54, #53, #47, #43, #39, #35, #33, #18, #16, #12, #11, #8, #7, #5, #4 15:09:45 #58 15:09:45 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/58 -> Action 58 revise localizable-manifests in light of tpac conversation and new explainer (on aphillips) due 2023-11-09 15:10:15 https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1SC0wVmEPKpeFdDmIvqBlFpcRZdY0yGzP/edit?usp=drive_link 15:11:15 addison: I gave a lightning talk at the UTW 15:11:20 ... about string meta 15:11:27 #57 15:11:28 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/57 -> Action 57 add localizable content definition to the glossary (on xfq) due 2023-11-09 15:11:50 #56 15:11:50 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/56 -> Action 56 check on permissions with w3ctag and follow up with plh on looking for notifications (on xfq) due 2023-11-02 15:12:22 #55 15:12:23 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/55 -> Action 55 work out new time slot for i18n/CSS call (on xfq) due 2023-11-01 15:12:59 xfq: enough answers to doodle poll, will propose time slot 15:13:03 https://doodle.com/meeting/organize/id/aOZ9ZpEe 15:13:58 #54 15:13:59 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/54 -> Action 54 read Murata-san's ruby-t2s-req and Chinese requirements and Zaima and see what we're going to do (on xfq) due 2023-11-01 15:14:17 #53 15:14:18 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/53 -> Action 53 come up with a set of information CSS want the i18n group to provide support for generic font families (on frivoal, fantasai) due 2023-11-01 15:14:31 present+ Martin 15:14:57 #47 15:14:57 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/47 -> Action 47 make the CSSWG aware of Warichu (on frivoal) due 2023-10-04 15:15:04 #43 15:15:05 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/43 -> Action 43 pull together the list of win/mac/etc apis for setting base direction and/or language (on aphillips) due 2023-09-18 15:15:18 #39 15:15:18 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/39 -> Action 39 develop best practice guidelines for name-like fields (on aphillips) due 2023-08-31 15:15:47 addison: I'm waiting on reviews 15:16:07 close #39 15:16:08 Closed -> action #39 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/39 15:16:13 #35 15:16:14 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/35 -> Action 35 make the edits of CSS #5478 (on fantasai) due 2023-08-30 15:16:19 #33 15:16:20 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/33 -> Action 33 Close issues marked `close?` or bring to WG for further review (on aphillips) 15:16:41 #18 15:16:41 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/18 -> Action 18 Have informal explanation sessions about counter style translations with csswg members (on frivoal, fantasai) 15:16:48 #16 15:16:49 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/16 -> Action 16 Keep track of line-breaking in Korean for i18n-discuss#11 (on aphillips) 15:16:57 #12 15:16:58 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/12 -> Action 12 Upgrade/edit the explainer to address issues raised by google (on aphillips) 15:17:28 #11 15:17:29 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/11 -> Action 11 Triage all css properties to determine which are logical, physical, or na by default (on frivoal) 15:17:32 #8 15:17:32 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/8 -> Action 8 Create pr against canvas formatted text (on aphillips) 15:17:39 #7 15:17:39 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/7 -> Action 7 Remind shepherds to tend to their awaiting comment resolutions (Evergreen) (on aphillips, xfq, himorin, r12a, bert-github) 15:17:55 #5 15:17:56 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/5 -> Action 5 Check into how to list questions at the top of a digest and/or improve lang enablement communications (on r12a) 15:18:11 #4 15:18:11 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/4 -> Action 4 Work with respec and bikeshed to provide the character markup template as easy-to-use markup (on r12a) 15:19:13 addison: anything we can do to jiggle the handle on the respec action? 15:19:18 r12a: write some code 15:19:36 zakim, take up agendum 3 15:19:36 agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:20:50 r12a: someone sent me a document about Urdu 15:21:08 ... it's time for me to create an Urdu Gap Analysis document 15:21:19 ... and do some updates to the counter styles document as well 15:21:31 ... although I have a number of questions about how that works 15:21:48 ... the more I think about that, the more I wonder whether it's a sensible thing to do 15:21:57 ... I've done several already 15:22:11 ... it takes quite a while 15:22:26 ... I'm thinking maybe not doing a layout requirements document 15:22:36 ... but just point to my document 15:23:05 ... the layout requirements document contains no technology specific information 15:23:51 r12a: my documents are dynamic 15:24:16 ... they have all sorts of additional information which is maybe not appropriate to go in the lreq document 15:24:45 ... the lreq document is an evergreen document that describes how the language works 15:25:09 ... it's a big job, as xfq knows and atsushi knows 15:25:21 addison: is that something we could automate better? 15:25:23 r12a: no 15:25:43 ... I'm not saying get rid of the ones that we have necessarily 15:26:07 ... I'm just saying I don't think I'll try and write another lreq document 15:26:32 martin: there was one unconference session about IDN 15:26:41 https://unicode-org.slack.com/archives/C064LLR2LQZ/p1699485049346849 15:26:51 ... IDNA 2008 and UTS #46 15:26:52 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/46 -> Action 46 [closed] read the string-meta explainer and consider the new approach addison proposes (on xfq, r12a) due 2023-09-28 15:27:03 ... they still have different purposes 15:27:25 ... but the essential difference that they had is mostly gone 15:28:48 addison: IETF has an exclusion process for characters 15:28:53 ... and it's a long running process 15:29:11 ... Mark Davis thinks that the exclusion process is a bad thing 15:30:44 martin: trying to catch up with new versions of Unicode is definitely something that I want to tell the idea of people to do 15:30:49 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LY-L5X6AybvQuzX_4BnvVwC7zPZEXjVC/edit?usp=drive_link&ouid=108765948792125311361&rtpof=true&sd=true 15:30:59 zakim, take up agendum 4 15:30:59 agendum 4 -- RADAR Review -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:31:09 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1 15:31:29 addison: we have no new incoming requests 15:31:34 ... we have nothing in review 15:31:54 ... vc-json-schema is moved over to Awaiting comment resolution 15:32:17 agenda? 15:32:28 zakim, take up agendum 6 15:32:28 agendum 6 -- Generic Font Families -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:32:41 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-discuss/wiki/Generic-font-families 15:33:17 r12a: this is a long standing issue 15:33:32 ... there are some font styles or writing styles that you might be using in a particular language 15:34:09 ... if the user doesn't have the font you specified, the browser is going to fall back 15:34:30 ... the generics we have at the moment are sort of stylish 15:35:03 ... like serif and sans-serif 15:35:28 ... during Geek Week I updated all the fonts of macOS and Windows 11, and Noto and SIL 15:35:50 ... I grouped those fonts into scripts and different writing styles 15:36:27 ... Chris Lilley already proposed the addition of Kai as a generic fallback 15:36:46 ... but there are things like rashi and so on 15:37:09 ... this list is based on the system fonts and Noto fonts in particular 15:37:28 ... for Hebrew there's not only rashi 15:37:36 ... there are also cursive letters 15:38:14 ... a bit further down, you can see that I'm suggesting that users should be able to define which font gets used for a particular generic 15:38:36 ... just like you can choose what you want for serif and sans-serif at the moment 15:39:16 xfq: useful page and in right direction; chris lilley has already added some comments 15:39:23 scribe+ addison 15:39:34 martin: you showed this fonts dialogue 15:39:48 ... if I choose Latin, I would still have these choices 15:40:09 ... but what if I use Chinese 15:40:35 r12a: this is implementation specific and it's kind of up to the browsers to an extent 15:41:33 https://r12a.github.io/scripts/fontlist/index.html 15:43:01 martin: what about Fangsong and Kai in Latin? 15:43:30 r12a: I don't really know the answer 15:44:05 martin: probably it would confuse most users in the Western Hemisphere if they see kai and nastaliq 15:44:30 ... it's definitely the browser makers to figure out whether they want to do that 15:44:56 ... if it's helpful to have Kai for Chinese and not for Latin 15:45:25 ... then do we have that information to what extent can be provided or not 15:45:39 addison: it's not really about language 15:45:48 ... it's about setting up what your fallback is 15:47:26 addison: what's the next step? 15:47:44 r12a: probably need to copy it to all of the language enablement groups 15:48:10 ... it's getting quite a lot of attention from serious people on Mastodon 15:48:37 ... I don't think whether CSS really need to set up a registry 15:49:30 ... so what's been happening so far is that Chris Lilley is gonna add Kai and nastaliq 15:49:39 addison: should we formalize this more? 15:49:50 ... this is just a wiki page at the moment 15:50:06 r12a: wiki makes it really easy to change things 15:50:49 addison: if our intention is to do a note eventually, we might want to start setting up a repo and a shortname 15:51:02 ... maybe roll it around in your head for a week 15:51:07 r12a: OK, I'll do that 15:51:37 ... I expect that we will add more than these styles eventually 15:51:48 ... but people will have to make a strong case for it 15:52:25 ... if you have a registry anyone could suggest stuff to it 15:52:33 ... you'd end up with a bit of a mess 15:52:52 addison: having it in the spec means higher level of friction 15:53:07 ... you can always make a registry later 15:53:32 zakim, take up agendum7 15:53:32 agendum 7 -- AOB? -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:54:18 rrsagent, make minutes 15:54:20 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/09-i18n-minutes.html xfq 15:56:03 regrets+ JcK 15:56:08 regrets+ Atsushi 15:56:14 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/09-i18n-minutes.html addison 15:57:06 zakim, who is here? 15:57:06 Present: Addison, Fuqiao, Richard, Bert, Martin 15:57:08 On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, addison, r12a, joraboi445, Github, imlostlmao, clafase, BoKilgore, James1, gonzu_15, MojGraph, gb, florian, eemeli, fantasai, sangwhan, hadleybeeman, 15:57:08 ... bigbluehat, astearns, Rachael, koji, Mek, cwilso, alastairc, csarven, agendabot, Bert, hsivonen 15:57:09 zakim, bye 15:57:09 Zakim has left #i18n 15:57:10 leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Addison, Fuqiao, Richard, Bert, Martin