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13:18:07 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group
13:18:40 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2023-11-03: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2023Nov/0000.html
13:18:41 <ivan> Chair: wendy
13:18:41 <ivan> Date: 2023-08-03
13:18:41 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2023Nov/0000.html
13:18:41 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group Telco
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13:58:41 <ivan> present+
13:58:50 <ivan> present+ shiestyle
13:59:07 <ivan> present+ Yong-Sang_Cho
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13:59:42 <ivan> present+ wendy
13:59:52 <toshiakikoike> present+
14:01:56 <ivan> present+ rickj
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14:03:12 <ivan> present+ avneesh
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14:06:43 <wendyreid> scribe+
14:06:44 <Guest42> present+
14:07:04 <ivan> present+ LaurentLM
14:07:57 <wendyreid> wendyreid: Change of plan, let's discuss publishing
14:08:38 <ivan> q+
14:08:44 <wendyreid> ... we wanted to be on a six month schedule
14:08:50 <wendyreid> ... do we want to do webtoons later
14:08:53 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:09:09 <wendyreid> ivan: There's an advice or request in the process to not publish more often than six months
14:09:28 <wendyreid> ... if we publish now without webtoons, we might need to wait another 6 months to incorporate that
14:09:36 <wendyreid> ... there's nothing urgent to publish now
14:09:42 <wendyreid> ... everything is relatively harmless
14:09:50 <wendyreid> ... webtoons is the most complex and relevant thing
14:10:01 <wendyreid> ... we can wait until we finally say yea or nay on the webtoon changes
14:10:32 <shiestyle> q+
14:10:53 <wendyreid> mattgarrish: We don't have anything critical, we have one class three already, if we need to do that approval we might as well wait for webtoons
14:11:03 <wendyreid> ... I don't know if it affects for just core or RS
14:11:16 <ivan> q+
14:11:21 <wendyreid> ... do we need to publish all together, or one doc at a time
14:11:25 <wendyreid> ack shiestyle
14:11:39 <wendyreid> shiestyle: We might need to discuss webtoons, it could take a while
14:11:46 <wendyreid> ... to resolve the topic
14:12:13 <wendyreid> ... I have a proposal, to regulate the restriction on rendition:flow
14:12:26 <wendyreid> ... we can add a note on this restriction not just for webtoons
14:12:30 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:12:31 <wendyreid> q+
14:12:58 <wendyreid> ivan: Just to answer Matt, my personal preference would be to take the 3 recs together
14:13:05 <wendyreid> ... it's a unit in three documents
14:13:15 <wendyreid> ... keeping them aligned is better message-wise
14:13:25 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
14:14:12 <ivan> present+ charles
14:14:43 <ivan> q+
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14:14:56 <CharlesL> present+
14:15:14 <LaurentLM> q+
14:15:45 <wendyreid> wendyreid: To Matt, it's a change to both, to Shinya, it might not take as long
14:16:02 <wendyreid> ivan: For class 3 we go to a AC review
14:16:22 <wendyreid> ... same way as CR, we must have tests, and implementations to back up the test
14:16:41 <wendyreid> ... it's important to have the feedback we need, if it won't pass the testing phase we shouldn't do it
14:16:45 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:16:49 <wendyreid> ack LaurentLM
14:17:49 <wendyreid> LaurentLM: +1 Ivan, it's not only allowing rendition:flow for FXL, it's also specifying in reading systems when two images should be placed one after another, in HTML, they won't be naturally put border on border
14:17:50 <ivan> present+ tzviya
14:17:54 <shiestyle> q+
14:17:57 <wendyreid> ... it's a need for specific implementations in RS
14:18:01 <wendyreid> ... it's an important modification
14:18:08 <wendyreid> ... not just one line in the spec
14:18:09 <wendyreid> q+
14:18:10 <ivan> +1 to LaurentLM
14:18:15 <wendyreid> ack shiestyle
14:18:56 <wendyreid> shiestyle: In 3.3, rendition:flow can be used in FXL and reflow, only in RS is it forbidden
14:19:16 <ivan> q+
14:19:17 <wendyreid> ... maybe we need another test, we already allow the use in the package, we may not need a new test
14:19:22 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
14:19:31 <LaurentLM> q+
14:21:16 <wendyreid> wendyreid: We need to look at the existing tests, and the language, we're usually not that strict with language
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14:21:18 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:21:25 <wendyreid> ivan: I don't have the test suite in my head
14:21:32 <wendyreid> ... even if we have a test with rendition:flow
14:21:43 <wendyreid> ... then the test today should say it's not allowed
14:22:00 <wendyreid> ... either we don't have a test, or we have a test where we need to change the criteria
14:22:09 <wendyreid> ... long term, we need the feedback of an engineer
14:22:23 <wendyreid> ... feedback on implementation, how it went
14:22:44 <tzviya> rrsagent, pointer
14:22:44 <RRSAgent> See https://www.w3.org/2023/11/03-pmwg-irc#T14-22-44
14:22:46 <wendyreid> ... noting that for the CR lines, we would need a test suite that meets the criteria
14:22:55 <wendyreid> ... we need 2 implementations
14:22:55 <tzviya> present+
14:23:03 <wendyreid> ack LaurentLM
14:23:28 <wendyreid> LaurentLM: Just to add, even if reading systems on FXL support scrolled-continuous, they will put the pages one below the other
14:23:40 <wendyreid> ... most of the reading systems will add margins
14:23:46 <wendyreid> ... the RS will have followed the riles
14:23:54 <wendyreid> ... but the user experience will be poor
14:24:07 <wendyreid> ... we need further further specification
14:24:13 <wendyreid> ... it's complex
14:24:18 <wendyreid> q?
14:24:30 <shiestyle> q+
14:25:00 <wendyreid> wendyreid: We're working on a lot of assumptions, let's look at what is currently there.
14:25:03 <wendyreid> ack shiestyle
14:25:34 <wendyreid> shiestyle: I wonder if we change the restriction in reading systems, RS don't have to implement the ???
14:25:46 <wendyreid> ... reading systems don't have to implement the feature
14:26:02 <wendyreid> LaurentLM: I'm not saying if it was allowed that RS must do it, but they would not pass the tes
14:26:03 <mgarrish> q+
14:26:11 <wendyreid> ... the systems not implementing would look bad
14:26:32 <wendyreid> ... most RS would do it correctly in regards to the spec, not what webtoons are
14:26:35 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
14:26:53 <wendyreid> mgarrish: I was just going to say we're spinning our wheels, we need to know the specifics
14:27:11 <wendyreid> ... FXL is generally SHOULDs, if we get into MUST that is tricky
14:27:22 <wendyreid> ... we need to get what is further into what is needed
14:27:33 <wendyreid> ... let's focus on getting this specced out, then build the tests.
14:27:48 <wendyreid> ivan: Someone should come up with a PR
14:27:53 <wendyreid> ... knowing it's a class 3 change
14:28:01 <wendyreid> ... changes marked up in the text
14:28:14 <wendyreid> wendyreid: I'll take a crack at it
14:28:27 <wendyreid> mgarrish: Might be better to get the text finalized then do the formal diff
14:28:46 <ivan> +1 to wendyreid
14:29:05 <ivan> Topi: ISO
14:29:16 <ivan> s/Topi/Topic/
14:29:53 <wendyreid> https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/epub33/fxl-a11y/
14:30:23 <ivan> q+
14:30:44 <wendyreid> ack ivan
14:31:14 <wendyreid> ivan: Just to add more info, we will have a call, Gregorio, Cristina, and I, with the EU Commission in a week
14:31:36 <wendyreid> ... to put an end to the discussion on if we publish through ISO does it jeopardize the acceptance of our docs in the EU
14:31:46 <wendyreid> ... we'll make a presentation to them
14:31:57 <wendyreid> ... hopefully this issue will be resolved by the end of the year
14:32:11 <wendyreid> ... we'll know for sure if ISO is a yes or no
14:32:35 <wendyreid> ... the other problem is that W3C and JTC1 have discussed the practical details of the PAS process
14:33:06 <wendyreid> ... up until last year, my information was, the PAS process was simple, the documents themselves stay as W3C docuemtns
14:33:14 <wendyreid> ... HTML format with the styling
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14:33:26 <wendyreid> ... only thing we'd need to produce is a cover letter of sorts
14:33:30 <wendyreid> ... referring to the W3C documents
14:33:39 <gpellegrino> present+
14:33:40 <wendyreid> ... this means we don't have a lot of editorial work
14:33:55 <wendyreid> ... the latest round says, JTC1 requires us to turn the documents to ISO format
14:34:06 <wendyreid> ... convert to MS Word, change the styling and layout
14:34:10 <wendyreid> ... change some of the language
14:34:15 <wendyreid> ... huge amount of editorial work
14:34:26 <wendyreid> ... I don't know if it's required or not
14:34:47 <wendyreid> ... at the moment there are discussions, we're not the guinea pigs, since WAI has published WCAG 2.2
14:35:12 <wendyreid> ... previous versions had an ISO stamp, now they want to push WCAG 2.2 to ISO
14:35:32 <wendyreid> ... WCAG 2.2 is more complex than EPUB, maybe JTC1 will come back on their requirements
14:35:36 <wendyreid> ... it's an unknown
14:35:50 <wendyreid> ... I just expressed our unhappiness about this, hopefully WCAG paves the way for us
14:36:07 <wendyreid> present+ cristina
14:36:34 <gpellegrino> q+
14:36:39 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
14:36:58 <gpellegrino> q+ after ISO discussion
14:37:09 <wendyreid> Yong-SangCho: Question, does JTC1 emphasize document format is the most important issue?
14:37:11 <gpellegrino> q+
14:37:38 <wendyreid> ivan: I was not at the discussion, I saw a presentation on PAS in general, no discussion with ISO on EPUB specifically
14:38:01 <wendyreid> ... there may be some other issues, I'm waiting to see if the formatting problem is there or a non-issue
14:38:13 <wendyreid> Yong-SangCho: JTC1 and ISO have the same document directives
14:38:24 <wendyreid> ... part 2 has normative guidance on writing standards
14:38:46 <wendyreid> ... in case of editing, I have experience in converting EPUB to Korean National Standard
14:39:07 <wendyreid> ... its a heavy effort, maybe I can volunteer or people from my group can support this conversion
14:39:22 <wendyreid> ... aside from formatting, are there other issues in the procedure?
14:39:37 <wendyreid> ... if there are, I can volunteer to communicate
14:39:49 <wendyreid> ... we'd like to keep the technical side in balance
14:40:06 <wendyreid> ... want to keep EPUB an international standard
14:40:28 <wendyreid> ... we'd like to adopt it as is if we can
14:41:27 <wendyreid> ivan: First of all, thank you, Matt and I, and the other editors, I have not tried to do the conversion before
14:41:36 <wendyreid> ... I have edited an ISO standard, but it was a while ago
14:41:55 <wendyreid> ... there's a terminology review that is more worrisome than word formatting
14:42:03 <wendyreid> ... make sure meanings are the same
14:42:21 <wendyreid> ... I think the PAS process means we enter a late stage of the process in ISO
14:42:39 <wendyreid> ... PAS process also includes original documents would be the same
14:42:52 <wendyreid> ... W3C docs are free, ISO are paid
14:43:11 <wendyreid> Yong-SangCho: Since W3C docs are available for free, the same content on ISO is also freely available
14:43:17 <wendyreid> ivan: That's good news
14:43:29 <wendyreid> ... for the timing, we need to wait on the other problem
14:43:47 <wendyreid> ... from our POV, that's the major challenge
14:44:05 <wendyreid> ... we should also begin the process after we get the class 3 changes through, we should use that version
14:44:12 <tzviya> q+ to mention archiving
14:44:41 <wendyreid> Yong-SangCho: If we have any concerns you want to check with JTC1, please let me know, I can check and communicate, I'll do my best to keep the original content
14:44:45 <shiestyle> q+
14:44:58 <gpellegrino> q-
14:45:17 <wendyreid> tzviya: I don't know Yong-Sang if you know, what about EPUB for archiving?
14:45:30 <wendyreid> ... any ideas on how we can coordinate our work with them, they're using an old version
14:45:55 <wendyreid> Yong-SangCho: It's just standing on preliminary work items, not yet a formal standard, there's a lot of comments referencing the latest version
14:46:30 <wendyreid> ... EPUB Archiving, not sure, we didn't decide the format, there's lots of other document types, we haven't decided yet which document type is appropriate for it
14:46:36 <wendyreid> ... it should reference EPUB 3.3
14:46:47 <wendyreid> tzviya: It should reference the latest W3C version, not ISO?
14:47:05 <wendyreid> Yong-SangCho: Since there's no ISO standard, they can point to W3C's standards
14:47:22 <wendyreid> ... EPUB 3.3 need to be in the bibliography, not normative references
14:47:30 <wendyreid> ... since it's outside ISO right now
14:47:46 <wendyreid> ... that's my understanding
14:47:51 <wendyreid> ... we need to discuss more details
14:48:21 <wendyreid> ivan: If EPUB 3.3 gets to ISO
14:48:37 <wendyreid> ... it would probably become an ISO standard before archiving
14:48:55 <wendyreid> Yong-SangCho: It'll be at least 36 months, + 3 or 6 months
14:49:32 <wendyreid> ... if EPUB 3.3 gets through PAS track, if EPUB Archive is released after
14:49:45 <wendyreid> ivan: then the archive will refer to the latest ISO spec, which would be 3.3
14:49:58 <wendyreid> Yong-SangCho: We'd like to share the latest update on EPUB/A
14:50:12 <wendyreid> ... it's not isolated or a different specification, it's based on EPUB
14:50:22 <wendyreid> ... we'll share the latest when it's ready
14:50:40 <wendyreid> ack tzviya
14:50:40 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to mention archiving
14:50:44 <wendyreid> ack shiestyle
14:51:00 <wendyreid> shiestyle: Thanks for coming today Yong-Sang, question about Korean ebook industry
14:51:23 <AvneeshSingh> q+ to comment on EPUB archive
14:51:23 <wendyreid> ... does it want to bring EPUB 3.3 to ISO, is there a problem if it doesn't?
14:52:04 <wendyreid> Yong-SangCho: The industry is flexible, its been operating with what is the latest, but the public sector, the government, will only adapt to ISO
14:52:17 <wendyreid> ... textbooks and such. Public sector has stronger regulations
14:52:31 <wendyreid> ... needs to use Korean Standards or international standards
14:52:55 <wendyreid> ... industry is favoured to taking international standards, since the standards are clearer, more consistent
14:53:02 <wendyreid> ... software follows regulations
14:53:12 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
14:53:12 <Zakim> AvneeshSingh, you wanted to comment on EPUB archive
14:53:36 <wendyreid> AvneeshSingh: Comment on EPUB Archive, I'm concerned about two international standards, it seems confusing
14:54:02 <wendyreid> ... my recommendation would be that EPUB 3.3 is the international standard, and EPUB Archive is a technical specification
14:54:06 <wendyreid> ... more clarity
14:54:25 <wendyreid> Yong-SangCho: I'll deliver your comment to the lead, we don't want to be trouble makers
14:54:45 <ivan> topic: Misc
14:55:02 <wendyreid> gpellegrino: Just to tell you that we are updating the note with the mapping
14:55:21 <wendyreid> ... in view of the meeting we're having with the commission, I'll post a PR over the weekend
14:55:38 <wendyreid> ... having you all double check the changes would be helpful
14:55:53 <wendyreid> ... if we can approve the mapping, and publish an updated version that would be great
14:56:32 <wendyreid> gpellegrino: Does it need a vote to be updated?
14:56:56 <wendyreid> wendyreid: Is it published to TR?
14:57:13 <wendyreid> ivan: If we follow the procedure, it will autopublished via echidna
14:57:27 <wendyreid> ... if there is enough reviewers, we can merge and it will update TR
14:57:34 <wendyreid> ... not as formal
14:57:49 <wendyreid> mgarrish: We've not had formal calls on notes
14:57:56 <wendyreid> ... we've tried to make sure everyone is on board
14:58:15 <wendyreid> ... even just sending an email to make sure everyone sees it
14:59:01 <wendyreid> wendyreid: We'll make sure there are approvals on the PR
14:59:15 <wendyreid> gpellegrino: I'll post the PR and we can proceed from there.
14:59:25 <wendyreid> wendyreid: AOB?
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15:03:37 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:03:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/03-pmwg-minutes.html ivan
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