17:00:46 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:00:50 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/11/02-aria-irc
17:00:50 <jamesn> meeting: ARIA WG
17:00:54 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:00:55 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
17:01:12 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
17:01:12 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
17:01:14 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ecffaf8b-8aa7-4acc-b238-6088a86cf12f/20231102T130000/
17:01:14 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:01:14 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/yc5mwxyd
17:01:14 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://tinyurl.com/4fx39an9
17:01:15 <agendabot> agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/ARIA-WPT
17:01:18 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
17:01:20 <agendabot> agenda+ Holiday Schedule: No meeting Nov 23, Dec 28, (Dec 21 XOR Jan 4)?
17:01:23 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Ambiguity in AccName LabelledBy section: "[if] current node is not already 'part of' [sic]…traversal" https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/209
17:01:27 <agendabot> agenda+ -> handling multi-selection / selection confirmation of action for menus https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2067
17:02:08 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Ambiguous cascade of role invalidation rules (including dependency label computation) complicates implementations https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2064
17:02:08 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Ambiguous but normative requirement about hidden nodes is hidden by default in AccName https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/211
17:02:08 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Title should not contribute to accName for generic elements https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/506
17:02:08 <agendabot> agenda+ -> [Question] wai-aria/role/listbox-roles.html wpt test https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2012
17:02:08 <agendabot> agenda+ -> aria-controls spec update https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1996
17:02:08 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Windows/Mac differences in presentation of some HTML-AAM implicit roles https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/467
17:02:08 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Consider a mechanism to associate controls without an explicit grouping https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1721
17:02:08 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Consider creation of a fieldsize/maxlength property https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1119
17:02:08 <agendabot> agenda+ -> ARIAMixin has many integer attributes with string types and uses DOMString? incorrectly https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1110
17:02:08 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Hierarchy of treeitems per aria level only? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2065
17:02:08 <agendabot> agenda+ -> describe grouping (and naming of the group) for exclusive accordions <details name> https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/509
17:02:19 <spectranaut_> chair: spectranaut_
17:03:01 <Francis_Storr> Francis_Storr has joined #aria
17:03:22 <Adam_Page> Adam_Page has joined #aria
17:03:44 <Adam_Page> present+
17:04:36 <Francis_Storr> present+
17:05:11 <StefanS> StefanS has joined #aria
17:05:16 <jcraig> scribe: jcraig
17:05:17 <CurtBellew> CurtBellew has joined #aria
17:05:18 <StefanS> present+
17:05:24 <jcraig> zakim, take up item 1
17:05:24 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/yc5mwxyd -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:05:25 <giacomo-petri> present+
17:05:39 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/209
17:05:57 <CurtBellew> present+
17:06:13 <jcraig> spectranaut_: editorial UIA... no need to discuss
17:06:22 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/214
17:06:35 <jcraig> dmontalvo: seems leftover
17:06:49 <Matt_King> present+
17:06:55 <jcraig> if jcraig does not object, will remove
17:07:37 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2070
17:07:51 <jcraig> PDF-AAM?
17:09:39 <jcraig> jamesn: i will flag this to some others
17:11:06 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/512
17:11:12 <Rahim> present+
17:11:39 <coryjoseph> coryjoseph has joined #aria
17:11:50 <scotto> scotto has joined #aria
17:12:09 <jcraig> implementations need to update: webkit and gecko have open bugs
17:13:08 <jcraig> scotto: steve merged.. chrome has already implemented
17:13:18 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/212
17:14:03 <jcraig> Rahim: cross-reference to spec where defined
17:14:53 <jcraig> jamesn: css diaply also has a text node definition
17:15:08 <jcraig> s/diaply/display/
17:15:36 <jcraig> zakim, close item 1
17:15:36 <Zakim> agendum 1, -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/yc5mwxyd, closed
17:15:37 <Zakim> I see 17 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:15:37 <Zakim> 2. -> New PR Triage https://tinyurl.com/4fx39an9 [from agendabot]
17:15:43 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:15:43 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://tinyurl.com/4fx39an9 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:16:01 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/210
17:16:31 <jcraig> editorial. jcraig to r+
17:16:33 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/207
17:16:58 <jcraig> two approved reviews... need a 3rd
17:17:13 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:17:13 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/ARIA-WPT -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:18:06 <jcraig> https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt/pull/42769
17:18:42 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:18:42 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:19:57 <CurtBellew> Need to drop.
17:20:23 <jcraig> zakim, close item 4
17:20:23 <Zakim> agendum 4, -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates, closed
17:20:25 <Zakim> I see 14 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:20:25 <Zakim> 5. Holiday Schedule: No meeting Nov 23, Dec 28, (Dec 21 XOR Jan 4)? [from agendabot]
17:20:26 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:20:26 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Holiday Schedule: No meeting Nov 23, Dec 28, (Dec 21 XOR Jan 4)? -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:20:50 <jcraig> spectranaut_: No meeting Nov 23 is US Thanksgiving
17:21:15 <jcraig> No meeting Dec 28... and possibly Dec 21 or Jan 4
17:22:02 <jcraig> a vote votes to cancel Dec 21. no objs
17:22:08 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:22:08 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> Ambiguity in AccName LabelledBy section: "[if] current node is not already 'part of' [sic]…traversal" https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/209 -- taken up [from
17:22:11 <Zakim> ... agendabot]
17:23:14 <jcraig> zakim, close item 4
17:23:14 <Zakim> agendum 4, -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates, closed
17:23:16 <Zakim> I see 13 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:23:16 <Zakim> 6. -> Ambiguity in AccName LabelledBy section: "[if] current node is not already 'part of' [sic]…traversal" https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/209 [from agendabot]
17:23:16 <jcraig> zakim, close item 5
17:23:17 <Zakim> agendum 5, Holiday Schedule: No meeting Nov 23, Dec 28, (Dec 21 XOR Jan 4)?, closed
17:23:17 <Zakim> I see 13 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:23:17 <Zakim> 6. -> Ambiguity in AccName LabelledBy section: "[if] current node is not already 'part of' [sic]…traversal" https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/209 [from agendabot]
17:23:21 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:23:21 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- -> handling multi-selection / selection confirmation of action for menus https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2067 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:24:17 <jcraig> scotto: maybe longer than 10m... less than deep dive
17:25:54 <jcraig> postpone until shorter agenda
17:25:55 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:25:55 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- -> Ambiguous cascade of role invalidation rules (including dependency label computation) complicates implementations https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2064 -- taken
17:25:58 <Zakim> ... up [from agendabot]
17:29:30 <jamesn> q+
17:30:06 <scotto> q+
17:30:08 <Rahim> q+
17:31:08 <Matt_King> q+
17:31:09 <spectranaut_> ack jamesn
17:31:40 <spectranaut_> ack scotto
17:32:47 <spectranaut_> ack Rahim
17:33:51 <spectranaut_> ack Matt_King
17:34:36 <Rahim> role="table grid", role="switch checkbox"?
17:35:07 <Rahim> These are the ones I see in the wild most often...
17:35:37 <jcraig> wg agreed to add role comp algo to the aria spec
17:36:23 <jcraig> Matt_King: questions the value of role fallback
17:36:40 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:36:40 <Zakim> agendum 9 -- -> Ambiguous but normative requirement about hidden nodes is hidden by default in AccName https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/211 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:40:11 <pkra> pkra has joined #aria
17:40:12 <pkra> present+
17:40:51 <spectranaut_> Matt_King: are there any implementations that do this/
17:41:02 <spectranaut_> jcraig: I think user agents don't implement this
17:41:12 <spectranaut_> jcraig: I might have only written a local test...
17:41:30 <spectranaut_> Matt_King: my concern is that if someone implements it, and people made accessible names that rely on this feature
17:41:56 <spectranaut_> jcraig: seems like there is enough in hidden that is so inconsistent that backwards breakage in one browser is ok
17:42:12 <spectranaut_> Matt_King: if it is only implemented in one, then I wouldn't be concerned
17:42:22 <spectranaut_> jcraig: this is not implemented across the board
17:42:34 <spectranaut_> Matt_King: if its in chromium that might be concerns
17:44:13 <jamesn> q+ to propose I create an editorial PR to expose all that hidden stuff in Accname
17:46:14 <jamesn> ack me
17:46:14 <Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to propose I create an editorial PR to expose all that hidden stuff in Accname
17:47:04 <jamesn> zakim, next item
17:47:04 <Zakim> agendum 10 -- -> Title should not contribute to accName for generic elements https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/506 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:47:04 <spectranaut_> zakim, next item
17:47:05 <jcraig> zakim, next item
17:47:07 <Zakim> agendum 10 was just opened, spectranaut_
17:47:07 <Zakim> agendum 10 was just opened, jcraig
17:48:38 <Matt_King> q+
17:48:43 <jcraig> scotto: should title on generics contribute to accname? pros and cons to this, but it's unclear what the author intended.
17:48:46 <Matt_King> q?
17:49:54 <jamesn> q+
17:50:07 <jcraig> Matt_King: please do make the accname change that title shuold not contribute to accname
17:50:24 <jcraig> s/shuold/should/
17:50:53 <jcraig> Matt_King: I see legitimate use of title on generics (e.g. container divs) but not for naming
17:51:17 <jamesn> ack Matt_King
17:51:21 <Rahim> q+
17:51:23 <jamesn> ack jamesn
17:51:52 <jcraig> jamesn: what about fallback error correction, where a generic div takes focus but has no title
17:52:10 <jcraig> Matt_King: if it's explicitly named
17:52:37 <spectranaut_> q?
17:52:46 <jcraig> Matt_King: sometimes divs become focusable due to css overflow: scroll
17:52:52 <jcraig> or auto
17:52:56 <spectranaut_> ack Rahim
17:53:11 <jcraig> Rahim: curious about what is the stance of aria naming of generics
17:53:52 <jcraig> if there guidance on what authors put it on a generic
17:54:03 <jcraig> s/what/when/
17:54:10 <jcraig> Matt_King: author error
17:54:30 <jcraig> scotto: came down to when it was focused, you'd get different results
17:54:47 <coryjoseph> q+
17:55:09 <jcraig> jcraig: namefrom: prohibited in the chars table for generic role
17:55:24 <spectranaut_> ack coryjoseph
17:55:33 <jcraig> coryjoseph: when there is a role added to span/div, title is allowed correct?
17:55:38 <jcraig> scotto: yes...
17:56:11 <jcraig> coryjoseph: there are loads of web apps. will this cause breakage?
17:56:31 <jcraig> Matt_King: the experience will be improved
17:56:34 <jcraig> q+
17:57:18 <jcraig> scotto: probably
17:57:26 <spectranaut_> ack jamesn
17:57:35 <spectranaut_> ack jcraig
17:58:21 <scotto> q+
17:59:07 <spectranaut_> zakim, close queue
17:59:07 <Zakim> ok, spectranaut_, the speaker queue is closed
17:59:33 <jcraig> jcraig: concerned that is we require implementations to NOT expose this, that's hiding some author provided string that may help an AT user
18:00:06 <jcraig> scotto: maybe title should be exposed in another non-name property like description or otherwise
18:00:37 <jcraig> Matt_King: should this get a deep-dive label?
18:00:53 <jcraig> spectranaut_: yes... will schedule it later
18:01:13 <jcraig> no deep dive next week
18:01:27 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
18:01:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/02-aria-minutes.html jcraig
18:01:40 <jamesn> zakim, end meeting
18:01:40 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Adam_Page, Francis_Storr, StefanS, giacomo-petri, CurtBellew, Matt_King, Rahim, pkra
18:01:42 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:01:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/02-aria-minutes.html Zakim
18:01:48 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jamesn; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
18:01:50 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
18:03:28 <bkardell_> bkardell_ has joined #aria
18:04:45 <jcraig> s/a vote votes/a couple votes/
18:05:41 <jcraig> s/that is we/that if we/
18:17:20 <spectranaut_> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:17:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/02-aria-minutes.html spectranaut_
18:18:35 <spectranaut_> s/core-aam#207 two approved reviews/aria PR #1931 two approved reviews/
18:18:48 <spectranaut_> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:18:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/11/02-aria-minutes.html spectranaut_