14:48:52 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #epub-fxl
14:48:56 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/10/30-epub-fxl-irc
14:48:56 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:48:57 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), wendyreid
14:49:05 <wendyreid> meeting: EPUB FXL Accessibility Task Force Meeting
14:49:10 <wendyreid> date: 2023-10-30
14:49:13 <wendyreid> chair: wendyreid
15:01:03 <jgriggs> jgriggs has joined #epub-fxl
15:01:50 <jgriggs> present+
15:05:01 <wendyreid> https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/89-654-x/89-654-x2023003-eng.htm
15:05:04 <wendyreid> present+
15:05:07 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino has joined #epub-fxl
15:05:20 <gpellegrino> present+
15:05:25 <JonasLillqvist> JonasLillqvist has joined #epub-fxl
15:05:26 <gautier> gautier has joined #epub-fxl
15:07:10 <CharlesL> CharlesL has joined #EPUB-FXL
15:07:10 <wendyreid> scribe+ Rachel_Osolen
15:07:16 <CharlesL> present+
15:07:18 <gautier> present+
15:08:21 <SimonPRH> SimonPRH has joined #epub-fxl
15:08:24 <SimonPRH> present+
15:08:42 <wendyreid> https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/epub33/fxl-a11y/
15:08:56 <wendyreid> https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/epub33/fxl-a11y-tech/
15:09:04 <Rachel_Osolen> wendy: did not get to everything, but did merge the PR's links here
15:09:55 <Guest42> Guest42 has joined #epub-fxl
15:09:57 <Rachel_Osolen> ... still need to get to legibility section. Needs major rewrite
15:10:08 <wendyreid> https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/epub33/fxl-a11y/#rs-a11y
15:10:19 <Rachel_Osolen> ... talk about Accessibility Guidiance for reading systems today
15:10:51 <Rachel_Osolen> ... this is where the different image types, what we identify as reading systems, and scripting and considerations for using java
15:11:10 <wendyreid> q?
15:11:20 <Rachel_Osolen> ... unique section, so lets open to discussion with group
15:11:38 <Guest42> q+
15:11:39 <gpellegrino> q+
15:11:47 <wendyreid> ack Guest42
15:12:03 <wendyreid> ack Guest
15:12:37 <Guest42>  - An RS should support an EPUB's table of contents, page list, and landmarks. (évident mais autant le répéter).
15:12:38 <Guest42> - An RS should enable access to the content of each page to assistive technologies.
15:12:38 <Guest42> - An RS should support fixed-layout SVG pages.
15:12:38 <Guest42> - An RS should enable resizing a page up to 200 percent without assistive technology and without losing content or functionality.
15:12:39 <Guest42> - An RS should enable the display of an image full screen.
15:12:39 <Guest42> - An RS should enable the display of alternative text and complex image descriptions without assistive technology.
15:12:39 <Guest42> - An RS should support EPUB Media Overlays.
15:12:39 <Guest42> - An RS should display the accessibility metadata provided in an EPUB.
15:12:39 <Guest42> And later (quand on aura trouvé un accord sur ces technologies) :
15:12:40 <Guest42> - An RS should support alternative reflow pages.
15:12:40 <Guest42> - An RS should support Synchronized Navigation.
15:12:46 <Rachel_Osolen> Lauraunt: proposal for this. has a list to be shared here above
15:13:04 <Rachel_Osolen> .... what reading system should go with what EPUB is supporting
15:14:02 <sue_neu> sue_neu has joined #epub-fxl
15:14:19 <sue_neu> p+
15:14:58 <sue_neu> present+
15:15:41 <Rachel_Osolen> ... nots SVG pages is part of requirment for EPUB, resizing will help with WGAG AA, two last are addtional recs. not needed to be added today
15:16:37 <Rachel_Osolen> ... believes is enough, each can be its own document, one reading system that has this can be considered a proper reading system for all layouts
15:16:38 <sueneu> sueneu has joined #epub-fxl
15:16:43 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
15:16:47 <sueneu> present+
15:17:39 <Rachel_Osolen> Gregorio: agrees with list. Should double check with accessible guidelines for browsers, user agent guidelines, he will double check and reference back to the specs
15:17:52 <wendyreid> https://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG20/
15:18:15 <Rachel_Osolen> ... resizing page to 100% that is not reflowable is just zooming text. We need to make this clear
15:18:55 <Rachel_Osolen> ... some of this is more than just baseline for accessiblity standards. For example the display Alt-text without assistive tech is not required but we should not it is recommended
15:19:09 <Guest42> s/100%/200%/
15:19:23 <Rachel_Osolen> ... correction is not required but we should note it is recommended
15:20:05 <Rachel_Osolen> Wendy: agreed. Would love to display to everyone. We can see this on social media with ID in image and in caption
15:20:11 <Naomi> Naomi has joined #epub-fxl
15:20:42 <wendyreid> q?
15:20:58 <CharlesL> q+
15:21:09 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
15:21:19 <Rachel_Osolen> Wendy: another way to look at this is also what do content creators want to look for with reading systems
15:21:31 <sueneu> sueneu has joined #epub-fxl
15:22:07 <Guest42> q+
15:22:13 <Rachel_Osolen> Charles: what do we want to include about horizontal and vertical scrolling? Not sure if there is a solution, but right now zooming is a pain and a big congnative load to read and keep track this way
15:22:24 <sueneu> present+
15:22:29 <wendyreid> ack Guest
15:23:41 <Rachel_Osolen> Laurent: Agreed, it is hard, but right now no real solution other than zoom. Maybe we imagine a new tech that can help with this type of scrolling. At the level of the reading system we cant do this right now
15:24:01 <Rachel_Osolen> Charles: maybe break it up in places so it only zoom vertically
15:24:40 <Rachel_Osolen> Laurent: we can't depend on the creators to do this for us, so we have to work with what we have. We have what we can do and what we dream for
15:25:00 <Rachel_Osolen> Charles: I agree, but I want to put this out to help avoid this scrolling in reading systems in the future
15:25:15 <Rachel_Osolen> Laurent: right now the reflowable idea is seems the most ideal
15:25:48 <Rachel_Osolen> Wendy: this goes back to our dreams of a better future. Goes back to conversation of responsive books like responsive epubs
15:26:45 <Rachel_Osolen> ... biggest challenge of responsive books is they are built very different. Books uses In Design, browswers use different tools. Don't know if it is a solution of the tools, but maybe a change with how books are actually buiilt
15:27:42 <Rachel_Osolen> Wendy: What are we missing from the tools? What are the challenges and blockers? for content creators
15:28:23 <Rachel_Osolen> Naomi: one point we have responsive design for ebooks. This broke, and content got cut off at the bottom of book because pagnation not updated in reflow
15:29:25 <Rachel_Osolen> ... one issue we face is the risk is addign responsive design involves a huge amount of retesting. Potentially less about risk and long term support for responsive design
15:29:48 <Rachel_Osolen> ... the second you do width of screen and viewport it gets complicated because of pagnation
15:30:27 <Rachel_Osolen> ... cant see them doing responsive design until this is fixed, might do it for a subsection of content. FXL is a bit easier to test than reflowable
15:30:52 <Rachel_Osolen> ... responsive design is a big task, and it is not automated, so it is a lot more labour intensive
15:30:59 <Rachel_Osolen> ... it is not just the tools
15:31:32 <gautier> q+
15:31:53 <Rachel_Osolen> Wendy: very fair point. Came up for us in our testing, when we set up the EPUB testing it all had to be done manually. Even if it is webbased, even with a web reader
15:32:48 <gpellegrino> q+
15:32:52 <Rachel_Osolen> Naomi: even a standard platform media query can create a lot of extra work. If we go down this road we cant just say this is an option
15:32:53 <wendyreid> ack gautier
15:34:07 <Rachel_Osolen> Gautier: we need to go into this discussion. It is not part of our current recommendations. Do we split this group to look into this further, or do we just finish what we have and wait for later work to add more later
15:34:10 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
15:34:51 <Rachel_Osolen> Gregorio: authoring tools available for FXL are not good at 2 things. 1 is reading order and the other is symantic tagging
15:35:36 <Rachel_Osolen> ... these two issues, reading order based on what is behind what (not good) and semantic tagging where everything is exported as a paragraph
15:35:54 <Rachel_Osolen> ... reading order also includes what is outside of reading order and needs to be tagged
15:36:18 <Rachel_Osolen> Wendy: So all we can all do in this doc is recommend to be careful about reading order and semantic tagging
15:37:11 <sueneu> q+
15:37:14 <Rachel_Osolen> ... does not have time to run side of how to fix these. I do not have the time to run this, but open to someone else tackling this
15:37:17 <wendyreid> ack sueneu
15:38:10 <Rachel_Osolen> Sue: Is part of what we do in the document is pointing out pinpoints where we can't do reading order and semantic tagging and just leave it there? As we are commenting on the current FXL status
15:38:37 <gpellegrino> q+
15:38:40 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
15:38:50 <Rachel_Osolen> Wendy: Good question, will be passed to EU. There could be pushed back on doign this work, though it can be done
15:39:41 <Rachel_Osolen> Gregorio: In doc we will say it is feasible, then on publisher side if it is work can be done or it is too expensive to fix accessibility of the book. It is outside of our technical discussion
15:39:53 <Rachel_Osolen> ... we should be clear on what is available right now
15:40:31 <Rachel_Osolen> Wendy: We have tech doc to point to where to find this issue and how to fix it, so this can show the how to use it
15:41:42 <Rachel_Osolen> ... for content creators: we know there are gaps, but are there other info you would like to have or be provided some clarity?
15:42:40 <Rachel_Osolen> Simon: this document will be used by the EC on how to do it. What we are talking about here is fine when we are doing our own books, but at scale of a vendor might not be possible to do this
15:43:09 <Rachel_Osolen> Wendy: Good point. Not all publishers do their own work, use vendors, is there a way we can phrase is so it is clear to the vendors
15:43:25 <Rachel_Osolen> Simon: this means vendors need to be part of the audience
15:44:38 <Rachel_Osolen> Wendy: A lot of people create the same output, what they do in the process is very different. We can be more explicit and include language that points to everyone who works on creating and EPUB
15:45:19 <Rachel_Osolen> Simon: defining author and content creator does this need to be part of the beginning of the document?
15:46:00 <Rachel_Osolen> Wendy: I think it is defined in another location and I can find it and link it to the document. Will look to see if I can find this
15:46:21 <Rachel_Osolen> Wendy: EPUB creator is the new phrase we use
15:46:56 <Rachel_Osolen> Gregorio: switched from EPUB Author to avoid confusion from original author and the person building the EPUB
15:47:08 <wendyreid> https://www.w3.org/TR/epub-33/#dfn-epub-creator
15:47:36 <Rachel_Osolen> Wendy: Might add terminology section for all these words we are introducing
15:48:12 <gautier> q+
15:48:16 <Rachel_Osolen> ... in terms of future work. Does anyone want to take a lead on these conversations.
15:48:17 <wendyreid> ack gautier
15:49:10 <Rachel_Osolen> Gautier: Maybe I can ask around and pass this foreward to see if someone can jump in and take a lead on this, and by January have something
15:50:42 <Rachel_Osolen> Wendy: needs to get this finalized. Needs content for Media Overlay section, and reading systems section. Anyone can give a look over from the prespective on what is needed
15:50:47 <LaurentLM> q+
15:50:51 <wendyreid> ack LaurentLM
15:51:39 <Rachel_Osolen> Laurent: We can take lead of reading system sections.
15:52:21 <Rachel_Osolen> Wendy: reworded Alt-text for document based on list provided. Thinks this list requires the top level requirements. Scrolling is still an issue, but is more complicated
15:53:08 <Rachel_Osolen> Laurent: One room in scrolling, is reflow. Currently there is no FXL that can say is meets the WGAG AA requirements
15:53:52 <Rachel_Osolen> ... no FXL document can state it supports the reflow requirements
15:54:49 <Rachel_Osolen> Wendy: Next steps, Laurent get additional text in accordance with list provided, and Wendy can edit it into the document
15:55:44 <Rachel_Osolen> ... Thank you everyone! We will meet ina week
15:56:00 <CharlesL> CharlesL has left #epub-fxl
15:59:50 <wendyreid> zakim, end meeting
15:59:50 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jgriggs, wendyreid, gpellegrino, CharlesL, gautier, SimonPRH, sue_neu, sueneu
15:59:52 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:59:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/30-epub-fxl-minutes.html Zakim
16:00:01 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, wendyreid; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
16:00:01 <Zakim> Zakim has left #epub-fxl
16:00:10 <wendyreid> rrsagent, make logs public
16:00:23 <wendyreid> rrsagent, bye
16:00:23 <RRSAgent> I see no action items