Meeting minutes
florian: I would like to talk about ruby and speech synthesis
<fantasai> w3c/
fantasai: this one would be good to get some review on ^
Action Items
https://
<gb> Issue 5478 [css-content] Quote character choice must depend on surrounding language, not language of the quotation (by r12a) [css-content-3] [Closed Accepted by CSSWG Resolution] [i18n-needs-resolution] [Needs Edits]
fantasai: I'm the editor for that spec
… definitely not any good reason not to have it edited
… I think I need to do a pass on that spec overall
… probably only take a couple of hours
<gb> Action 18 Have informal explanation sessions about counter style translations with csswg members (on frivoal, fantasai)
florian: regarding action #18 and #47, do you think we should add something into the regular call agenda or wait for a face to face and use lightning talks or something?
<gb> Action 18 Have informal explanation sessions about counter style translations with csswg members (on frivoal, fantasai)
<gb> Action 47 make the CSSWG aware of Warichu (on frivoal) due 2023-10-04
fantasai: I'm not sure
florian: do we have an issue in the CSSWG about this already?
… for Warichu, I don't think there is
… for counter styles, we talked about it very recently
… we discussed Warichu in the last i18n/CSS call
fantasai: realistically speaking, there's a lot of work that needs to happen on inline layout
florian: I don't think we can convince anybody it's their top priority
fantasai: I think it's worth raising it to the CSSWG
… to the engineers that work on layout
… I think it would be a new display type
florian: in some ways it's an inline block but not in all the ways
fantasai: it's different from an inline block because it does a whole bunch of things that are extremely complicated to do
… a demo, that could be a fun little project for somebody to work on
florian: the counter style discussion, the last time the CSSWG was talking about this
… it seemed i18n folks were uncomfortable with a proposal that was supposed to support i18n, so we should probably try and explain why better.
… not sure how to frame that discussion
fantasai: write a blog post?
florian: maybe
florian: by the time we have the next CSS F2F I'll try to give a lightning talk about it
… please remind me, I'll try
fantasai: file an issue and flag it for the F2F and that will remind you
<gb> Issue 109 建è°å¢å éè¡å¤¾æ³¨ (by heangfat) [æªä¾å·¥ä½/future]
atsushi: in jlreq TF there was some generic discussion about annotation, including Warichu and ruby
… from the Japanese perspective, they might not be interested so much
florian: I'll make a presentation. I'll try to use examples you have, or ask for more if needed. But I wouldn't expect progress soon
<gb> Action 10 With florian triage richard's article into a list of potential generics (on frivoal, fantasai)
xfq: I got an action item to work with clreq to investigate or produce a generics proposal
florian: I'm happy to support something that comes from the i18n group
… but I don't feel confident making the list myself
<atsushi> /me assuming no more from jlreq on generic...
florian: I don't know if we need to go depth first or breadth first
fantasai: I think you and i take an action item to be like "what is the format of the information that we're looking for?"
… and then let i18n to fill in
… probably a framework
… a sort of registry
fantasai: in terms of information we need obviously is "what is thing called? what is a relevant writing system? what are the distingguishing characteristics that making this create a new font family"
… and lastly, we need a list of example fonts
… that are commonly found on systems
… the point that Myles was making earlier was that we can't create a generic family if there aren't fonts that are commonly found on computers that use the relevant writing system
florian: I understand these points
… I'm not sure I agree with it for 2 reasons
… there are fonts do not commonly come installed with system
… that people install a lot anyways
… if the browser can recognise that it's there even if it wasn't put there by the OS vendor
fantasai: if it's something that the users have to install it but every user in that writing system installs it or like 90% of them do
… that could be a generic font
… but if it's something that 40% of the population using that writing system has installed
… it's not going to work
florian: there is a tension between i18n support and privacy
… and I'm not sure how to resolve it
… privacy should not be ignored, but I'm not sure that's the only deciding factor either. Anyway, that's at least a good starting point.
<fantasai> A generic family needs to contain multiple typefaces
<fantasai> It needs to exist on a preponderance of computers configured for the relevant language
<fantasai> Without these two things it's not an implementable generic family
ACTION: florian and fantasai to come up with a set of information CSS want the i18n group to provide support
<gb> Created action #53
close #10
<gb> Closed action #10
<fantasai> If there's just one font, it's not generic. If it's not available on a preponderance of that writing system's users' computers, then it's not going to work because the syntax can't be hooked up to an actual font
Info Share and Progress Reports
fantasai: we updated CSS Text
Ruby and speech synthesis
<florian> https://
florian: there is this document from Murata-san ^
… ruby for pronunciation
… or ruby for alternate pronunciation
… or various cases
… ruby is not only used for Japanese
… I hink the Chinese uses of ruby are actually pretty similar
… even though the examples are Japanese
<florian> http://
florian: the same logic applies to Chinese
… for this style ^
… I have no idea what tts engine is supposed to do with it
… maybe it's fitting into one of categories by Murata-san
… but quite possibly not
… from the problem I suspect a solution might take the form of an HTML attribute to categorize the type of ruby, which helps TTS engines know what to do with it
… it would be interesting to ask people who knows Zaima
… I don't have the answer
… I tried to mail the editor of that document but my email bounced
ACTION: xfq to read Murata-san's ruby-t2s-req and reqs in Chinese and Zaima see what we're going to do
<gb> Created action #54
florian: similarly, if there are users of ruby other than the typical CJK uses, and Zaima
<gb> Issue 240 Could we build symbolic annotations with existing Web standards? (by DuncanMacWeb) [i18n-tracker]
pending issues
fantasai: we have a lot of text spacing stuff
… we have an open discussion about what's the best default
… that's a largely a compat question
… text specing is being implenented currently in I believe Blink and WebKit
… engineers are working on it
florian: there are some of the discussions you alluded to i18n is probably aware of
<gb> Issue 9479 [css-text] Extra spacing between ideographs and non-fullwidth punctuation/symbols (by xfq) [css-text-4] [i18n-tracker] [i18n-jlreq] [i18n-clreq]
florian: thanks for opening it
… because implementions are ongoing
… this one would be good to put in a tight loop
<gb> Issue 9501 [css-text] The definition of ideographs includes punctuation marks (by xfq) [css-text-4] [i18n-tracker] [i18n-clreq] [Agenda+ i18n]
florian: also this one
florian: we have a PR
xfq: fixes issue I raised
… wrt kana, I think Atsushi wrote an email to the jltf
atsushi: chatted with Kida-san, but couldn't reach a formal conclusion so Kida-san and I would want to hear from jlreq
… there was some discussion about halfwidth kana and horizontal bar
… but we are not sure for the final answer
fantasai: should we be picking a different time if this is not working very well for r12a and Addison?
florian: also for you
<atsushi> +1 for time slot
fantasai: what about the slot after the normal i18n call?
atsushi: I have TTWG call
fantasai: what about the slot before the i18n call?
florian: works for me
fantasai: will be uncomfortable for Addison
fantasai: the i18n slot, but for Wed?
xfq: works for me
ACTION: work out new time slot for i18n/CSS call
ACTION: xfq to work out new time slot for i18n/CSS call
<gb> Created action #55