05:03:11 RRSAgent has joined #i18n 05:03:15 logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/10/25-i18n-irc 05:03:22 Meeting: I18N ⇔ CSS 05:03:27 rrsagent, make log public 05:03:30 rrsagent, make minutes 05:03:31 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/25-i18n-minutes.html xfq 05:04:53 present+ florian, fantasai, atsushi, xfq 05:05:06 scribe: xfq 05:05:31 florian: I would like to talk about ruby and speech synthesis 05:05:48 -> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/pull/9503 05:06:00 fantasai: this one would be good to get some review on ^ 05:06:14 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/d737b1d9-bb00-4b14-9507-0338465ee8ed/20231024T220000/ 05:06:15 clear agenda 05:06:15 agenda+ Agenda 05:06:15 agenda+ Action Items 05:06:15 agenda+ Info Share and Progress Reports 05:06:15 agenda+ Review on-going issues 05:06:37 agenda+ Ruby and speech synthesis 05:06:55 zakim, take up item 2 05:06:55 agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot] 05:07:07 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Acss 05:08:04 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/5478 05:08:05 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/5478 -> Issue 5478 [css-content] Quote character choice must depend on surrounding language, not language of the quotation (by r12a) [css-content-3] [Closed Accepted by CSSWG Resolution] [i18n-needs-resolution] [Needs Edits] 05:08:55 fantasai: I'm the editor for that spec 05:09:11 ... definitely not any good reason not to have it edited 05:09:23 ... I think I need to do a pass on that spec overall 05:09:35 ... probably only take a couple of hours 05:10:16 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/18 05:10:16 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/18 -> Action 18 Have informal explanation sessions about counter style translations with csswg members (on frivoal, fantasai) 05:11:17 florian: regarding action #18 and #47, do you think we should add something into the regular call agenda or wait for a face to face and use lightning talks or something? 05:11:17 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/18 -> Action 18 Have informal explanation sessions about counter style translations with csswg members (on frivoal, fantasai) 05:11:17 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/47 -> Action 47 make the CSSWG aware of Warichu (on frivoal) due 2023-10-04 05:11:22 fantasai: I'm not sure 05:11:53 florian: do we have an issue in the CSSWG about this already? 05:12:08 ... for Warichu, I don't think there is 05:12:22 ... for counter styles, we talked about it very recently 05:12:40 ... we discussed Warichu in the last i18n/CSS call 05:13:11 fantasai: realistically speaking, there's a lot of work that needs to happen on inline layout 05:13:49 florian: I don't think we can convince anybody it's their top priority 05:14:52 fantasai: I think it's worth raising it to the CSSWG 05:14:59 ... to the engineers that work on layout 05:15:16 ... I think it would be a new display type 05:15:33 florian: in some ways it's an inline block but not in all the ways 05:15:59 fantasai: it's different from an inline block because it does a whole bunch of things that are extremely complicated to do 05:16:49 atsushi has joined #i18n 05:17:02 ... a demo, that could be a fun little project for somebody to work on 05:17:30 florian: the counter style discussion, the last time the CSSWG was talking about this 05:18:01 ... @@1 05:18:04 ... not sure how to frame that discussion 05:18:07 florian: write a blog post? 05:18:09 florian: maybe 05:18:21 s/florian: write a blog post?/fantasai: write a blog post? 05:19:37 florian: by the time we have the next CSS F2F I'll try to give a lightning talk about it 05:19:51 ... please remind me, I'll try 05:20:07 fantasai: file an issue and flag it for the F2F and that will remind you 05:20:51 https://github.com/w3c/clreq/issues/109#issuecomment-675224780 05:20:52 https://github.com/w3c/clreq/issues/109 -> Issue 109 建議增加雙行夾注 (by heangfat) [未來工作/future] 05:22:27 atsushi: in jlreq TF there was some generic discussion about annotation, including Warichu and ruby 05:22:48 ... from the Japanese perspective, they might not be interested so much 05:23:59 florian: @@2 05:24:01 xfq has left #i18n 05:24:16 xfq has joined #i18n 05:24:40 s/@@2/I'll make a presentation. I'll try to use examples you have, or ask for more if needed. But I wouldn't expect progress soon/ 05:25:31 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/10 05:25:32 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/10 -> Action 10 With florian triage richard's article into a list of potential generics (on frivoal, fantasai) 05:27:15 xfq: I got an action item to work with clreq to investigate or produce a generics proposal 05:27:38 florian: I'm happy to support something that comes from the i18n group 05:27:51 ... but I don't feel confident making the list myself 05:28:26 s/@@1/it seemed i18n folks were uncomfortable with a proposal that was supposed to support i18n, so we should probably try and explain why better. 05:28:32 /me assuming no more from jlreq on generic... 05:29:43 florian: I don't know if we need to go depth first or breadth first 05:30:15 fantasai: I think you and i take an action item to be like "what is the format of the information that we're looking for?" 05:30:31 ... and then let i18n to fill in 05:30:45 ... probably a framework 05:30:58 ... a sort of registry 05:32:08 fantasai: in terms of information we need obviously is "what is thing called? what is a relevant writing system? what are the distingguishing characteristics that making this create a new font family" 05:32:16 ... and lastly, we need a list of example fonts 05:32:29 ... that are commonly found on systems 05:33:11 ... the point that Myles was making earlier was that we can't create a generic family if there aren't system fonts that are commonly found on the computer 05:33:27 florian: I understand these points 05:33:35 ... I'm not sure I agree with it for 2 reasons 05:33:46 s/system fonts/fonts/ 05:33:53 ... there are fonts do not commonly come installed with system 05:33:58 s/on the computer/on computers that use the relevant writing system/ 05:34:04 ... that people install a lot anyways 05:34:32 ... if the browser can recognise that it's there even if it wasn't put there by the OS vendor 05:35:09 fantasai: if it's something that the users have to install it but every user in that writing system installs it or like 90% of them do 05:35:14 ... that could be a generic font 05:35:32 ... but if it's something that 40% of the population using that writing system has installed 05:35:40 ... it's not going to work 05:35:53 florian: there is a tension between i18n support and privacy 05:36:00 ... and I'm not sure how to resolve it 05:36:17 ... @@3 05:36:23 A generic family needs to contain multiple typefaces 05:36:46 It needs to exist on a preponderance of computers configured for the relevant language 05:37:02 Without these two things it's not an implementable generic family 05:37:19 action: florian and fantasai to come up with a set of information CSS want the i18n group to provide support 05:37:26 Created -> action #53 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/53 05:37:26 close #10 05:37:26 s/@@3/privacy should not be ignored, but I'm not sure that's the only deciding factor either. 05:37:28 Closed -> action #10 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/10 05:38:05 zakim, agenda? 05:38:05 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda: 05:38:06 1. Agenda [from agendabot] 05:38:06 2. Action Items [from agendabot] 05:38:06 3. Info Share and Progress Reports [from agendabot] 05:38:07 4. Review on-going issues [from agendabot] 05:38:07 5. Ruby and speech synthesis [from xfq] 05:38:07 s/deciding factor either./deciding factor either. Anyway, that's at least a good starting point. 05:38:12 If there's just one font, it's not generic. If it's not available on a preponderance of that writing system's users' computers, then it's not going to work because the syntax can't be hooked up to an actual font 05:38:22 zakim, take up item 3 05:38:22 agendum 3 -- Info Share and Progress Reports -- taken up [from agendabot] 05:38:42 fantasai: we updated CSS Text 05:39:02 zakim, take up item 5 05:39:02 agendum 5 -- Ruby and speech synthesis -- taken up [from xfq] 05:39:13 https://w3c.github.io/ruby-t2s-req/ 05:39:24 florian: there is this document from Murata-san ^ 05:39:31 ... ruby for pronunciation 05:39:39 ... or ruby for alternate pronunciation 05:39:45 ... or various cases 05:39:52 ... ruby is not only used for Japanese 05:40:06 ... I hink the Chinese uses of ruby are actually pretty similar 05:40:17 ... even though the examples are Japanese 05:40:22 http://yacob.org/ethio-ruby/ 05:40:24 ... the same logic applies to Chinese 05:40:45 ... for this style ^ 05:40:57 ... I have no idea what tts engine is supposed to do with it 05:41:09 ... maybe it's fitting into one of categories by Murata-san 05:41:16 ... but quite possibly not 05:41:54 ... from the problem I suspect it might take the form of an HTML attribute 05:42:17 ... it would be interesting to ask people who knows Zaima 05:42:23 ... I don't have the answer 05:42:39 ... I tried to mail the editor of that document but my email bounced 05:42:50 s/I suspect it might/I suspect a solution might 05:43:15 s/HTML attribute/HTML attribute to categorize the type of ruby, which helps TTS engines know what to do with it 05:43:41 action: xfq to read Murata-san's ruby-t2s-req and reqs in Chinese and Zaima see what we're going to do 05:43:43 Created -> action #54 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/54 05:44:24 florian: similarly, if there are users of ruby other than @@ 05:44:24 https://github.com/w3c/adapt/issues/240 05:44:25 https://github.com/w3c/adapt/issues/240 -> Issue 240 Could we build symbolic annotations with existing Web standards? (by DuncanMacWeb) [i18n-tracker] 05:44:45 s/other than @@/other than the typical CJK uses, and Zaima 05:45:20 Topic: pending issues 05:46:19 fantasai: we have a lot of text spacing stuff 05:46:30 ... we have an open discussion about what's the best default 05:46:37 ... that's a largely a compat question 05:47:36 ... text specing is being implenented currently in I believe Blink and WebKit 05:47:46 ... engineers are working on it 05:48:08 ... there are some of the discussions you alluded to i18n is probably aware of 05:48:22 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9479 05:48:22 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9479 -> Issue 9479 [css-text] Extra spacing between ideographs and non-fullwidth punctuation/symbols (by xfq) [css-text-4] [i18n-tracker] [i18n-jlreq] [i18n-clreq] 05:48:31 florian: thanks for opening it 05:48:35 s/... there are/florian: there are 05:48:47 ... because implementions are ongoing 05:48:58 ... this one would be good to put in a tight loop 05:49:10 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9501 05:49:10 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9501 -> Issue 9501 [css-text] The definition of ideographs includes punctuation marks (by xfq) [css-text-4] [i18n-tracker] [i18n-clreq] [Agenda+ i18n] 05:49:15 florian: also this one 05:50:02 florian: we have a PR 05:50:03 https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/pull/9503 05:50:32 scribe+ 05:50:36 xfq: fixes issue I raised 05:50:51 ... wrt katakana, I think Atsushi wrote an email to the jltf 05:51:02 s/katakana/kana 05:51:08 atsushi: chatted with Kida-san, but couldn't reach a formal conclusion so Kida-san and I would want to hear from jlreq 05:51:24 ... there was some discussion about halfwidth kana and horizontal bar 05:51:30 ... but we are not sure for the final answer 05:52:33 agenda? 05:53:46 fantasai: should we be picking a different time if this is not working very well for r12a and Addison? 05:54:03 florian: also for you 05:54:06 +1 for time slot 05:54:59 fantasai: what about the slot after the normal i18n call? 05:55:33 atsushi: I have TTWG call 05:55:44 fantasai: what about the slot before the i18n call? 05:55:48 florian: works for me 05:56:03 fantasai: will be uncomfortable for Addison 05:57:38 fantasai: the i18n slot, but for Wed? 05:57:46 xfq: works for me 05:58:30 action: work out new time slot for i18n/CSS call 05:58:40 action: xfq to work out new time slot for i18n/CSS call 05:58:40 Created -> action #55 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/55 05:59:29 rrsagent, make minutes 05:59:30 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/25-i18n-minutes.html xfq 06:00:38 rrsagent, make minutes 06:00:39 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/25-i18n-minutes.html xfq 07:22:52 atsushi has joined #i18n 08:56:59 xfq has joined #i18n 09:59:59 xfq has joined #i18n 10:48:39 xfq has joined #i18n 10:50:26 xfq has joined #i18n 10:53:59 xfq has joined #i18n 11:17:51 xfq has joined #i18n 11:47:04 xfq has joined #i18n 11:48:49 xfq has joined #i18n 12:52:06 xfq has joined #i18n 14:37:20 xfq has joined #i18n 14:38:52 xfq has joined #i18n 14:40:12 xfq has joined #i18n