IRC log of i18n on 2023-10-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/10/25-i18n-irc
05:03:22 [xfq]
Meeting: I18N ⇔ CSS
05:03:27 [xfq]
rrsagent, make log public
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rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/25-i18n-minutes.html xfq
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present+ florian, fantasai, atsushi, xfq
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scribe: xfq
05:05:31 [xfq]
florian: I would like to talk about ruby and speech synthesis
05:05:48 [fantasai]
-> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/pull/9503
05:06:00 [xfq]
fantasai: this one would be good to get some review on ^
05:06:14 [xfq]
agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/d737b1d9-bb00-4b14-9507-0338465ee8ed/20231024T220000/
05:06:15 [agendabot]
clear agenda
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agenda+ Agenda
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agenda+ Action Items
05:06:15 [agendabot]
agenda+ Info Share and Progress Reports
05:06:15 [agendabot]
agenda+ Review on-going issues
05:06:37 [xfq]
agenda+ Ruby and speech synthesis
05:06:55 [xfq]
zakim, take up item 2
05:06:55 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot]
05:07:07 [xfq]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Acss
05:08:04 [xfq]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/5478
05:08:05 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/5478 -> Issue 5478 [css-content] Quote character choice must depend on surrounding language, not language of the quotation (by r12a) [css-content-3] [Closed Accepted by CSSWG Resolution] [i18n-needs-resolution] [Needs Edits]
05:08:55 [xfq]
fantasai: I'm the editor for that spec
05:09:11 [xfq]
... definitely not any good reason not to have it edited
05:09:23 [xfq]
... I think I need to do a pass on that spec overall
05:09:35 [xfq]
... probably only take a couple of hours
05:10:16 [xfq]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/18
05:10:16 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/18 -> Action 18 Have informal explanation sessions about counter style translations with csswg members (on frivoal, fantasai)
05:11:17 [xfq]
florian: regarding action #18 and #47, do you think we should add something into the regular call agenda or wait for a face to face and use lightning talks or something?
05:11:17 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/18 -> Action 18 Have informal explanation sessions about counter style translations with csswg members (on frivoal, fantasai)
05:11:17 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/47 -> Action 47 make the CSSWG aware of Warichu (on frivoal) due 2023-10-04
05:11:22 [xfq]
fantasai: I'm not sure
05:11:53 [xfq]
florian: do we have an issue in the CSSWG about this already?
05:12:08 [xfq]
... for Warichu, I don't think there is
05:12:22 [xfq]
... for counter styles, we talked about it very recently
05:12:40 [xfq]
... we discussed Warichu in the last i18n/CSS call
05:13:11 [xfq]
fantasai: realistically speaking, there's a lot of work that needs to happen on inline layout
05:13:49 [xfq]
florian: I don't think we can convince anybody it's their top priority
05:14:52 [xfq]
fantasai: I think it's worth raising it to the CSSWG
05:14:59 [xfq]
... to the engineers that work on layout
05:15:16 [xfq]
... I think it would be a new display type
05:15:33 [xfq]
florian: in some ways it's an inline block but not in all the ways
05:15:59 [xfq]
fantasai: it's different from an inline block because it does a whole bunch of things that are extremely complicated to do
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05:17:02 [xfq]
... a demo, that could be a fun little project for somebody to work on
05:17:30 [xfq]
florian: the counter style discussion, the last time the CSSWG was talking about this
05:18:01 [xfq]
... @@1
05:18:04 [xfq]
... not sure how to frame that discussion
05:18:07 [xfq]
florian: write a blog post?
05:18:09 [xfq]
florian: maybe
05:18:21 [xfq]
s/florian: write a blog post?/fantasai: write a blog post?
05:19:37 [xfq]
florian: by the time we have the next CSS F2F I'll try to give a lightning talk about it
05:19:51 [xfq]
... please remind me, I'll try
05:20:07 [xfq]
fantasai: file an issue and flag it for the F2F and that will remind you
05:20:51 [xfq]
https://github.com/w3c/clreq/issues/109#issuecomment-675224780
05:20:52 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/clreq/issues/109 -> Issue 109 建議增加雙行夾注 (by heangfat) [未來工作/future]
05:22:27 [xfq]
atsushi: in jlreq TF there was some generic discussion about annotation, including Warichu and ruby
05:22:48 [xfq]
... from the Japanese perspective, they might not be interested so much
05:23:59 [xfq]
florian: @@2
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05:24:40 [florian]
s/@@2/I'll make a presentation. I'll try to use examples you have, or ask for more if needed. But I wouldn't expect progress soon/
05:25:31 [xfq]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/10
05:25:32 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/10 -> Action 10 With florian triage richard's article into a list of potential generics (on frivoal, fantasai)
05:27:15 [xfq]
xfq: I got an action item to work with clreq to investigate or produce a generics proposal
05:27:38 [xfq]
florian: I'm happy to support something that comes from the i18n group
05:27:51 [xfq]
... but I don't feel confident making the list myself
05:28:26 [florian]
s/@@1/it seemed i18n folks were uncomfortable with a proposal that was supposed to support i18n, so we should probably try and explain why better.
05:28:32 [atsushi]
/me assuming no more from jlreq on generic...
05:29:43 [xfq]
florian: I don't know if we need to go depth first or breadth first
05:30:15 [xfq]
fantasai: I think you and i take an action item to be like "what is the format of the information that we're looking for?"
05:30:31 [xfq]
... and then let i18n to fill in
05:30:45 [xfq]
... probably a framework
05:30:58 [xfq]
... a sort of registry
05:32:08 [xfq]
fantasai: in terms of information we need obviously is "what is thing called? what is a relevant writing system? what are the distingguishing characteristics that making this create a new font family"
05:32:16 [xfq]
... and lastly, we need a list of example fonts
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... that are commonly found on systems
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... the point that Myles was making earlier was that we can't create a generic family if there aren't system fonts that are commonly found on the computer
05:33:27 [xfq]
florian: I understand these points
05:33:35 [xfq]
... I'm not sure I agree with it for 2 reasons
05:33:46 [fantasai]
s/system fonts/fonts/
05:33:53 [xfq]
... there are fonts do not commonly come installed with system
05:33:58 [fantasai]
s/on the computer/on computers that use the relevant writing system/
05:34:04 [xfq]
... that people install a lot anyways
05:34:32 [xfq]
... if the browser can recognise that it's there even if it wasn't put there by the OS vendor
05:35:09 [xfq]
fantasai: if it's something that the users have to install it but every user in that writing system installs it or like 90% of them do
05:35:14 [xfq]
... that could be a generic font
05:35:32 [xfq]
... but if it's something that 40% of the population using that writing system has installed
05:35:40 [xfq]
... it's not going to work
05:35:53 [xfq]
florian: there is a tension between i18n support and privacy
05:36:00 [xfq]
... and I'm not sure how to resolve it
05:36:17 [xfq]
... @@3
05:36:23 [fantasai]
A generic family needs to contain multiple typefaces
05:36:46 [fantasai]
It needs to exist on a preponderance of computers configured for the relevant language
05:37:02 [fantasai]
Without these two things it's not an implementable generic family
05:37:19 [xfq]
action: florian and fantasai to come up with a set of information CSS want the i18n group to provide support
05:37:26 [gb]
Created -> action #53 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/53
05:37:26 [xfq]
close #10
05:37:26 [florian]
s/@@3/privacy should not be ignored, but I'm not sure that's the only deciding factor either.
05:37:28 [gb]
Closed -> action #10 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/10
05:38:05 [xfq]
zakim, agenda?
05:38:05 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
05:38:06 [Zakim]
1. Agenda [from agendabot]
05:38:06 [Zakim]
2. Action Items [from agendabot]
05:38:06 [Zakim]
3. Info Share and Progress Reports [from agendabot]
05:38:07 [Zakim]
4. Review on-going issues [from agendabot]
05:38:07 [Zakim]
5. Ruby and speech synthesis [from xfq]
05:38:07 [florian]
s/deciding factor either./deciding factor either. Anyway, that's at least a good starting point.
05:38:12 [fantasai]
If there's just one font, it's not generic. If it's not available on a preponderance of that writing system's users' computers, then it's not going to work because the syntax can't be hooked up to an actual font
05:38:22 [xfq]
zakim, take up item 3
05:38:22 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- Info Share and Progress Reports -- taken up [from agendabot]
05:38:42 [xfq]
fantasai: we updated CSS Text
05:39:02 [xfq]
zakim, take up item 5
05:39:02 [Zakim]
agendum 5 -- Ruby and speech synthesis -- taken up [from xfq]
05:39:13 [florian]
https://w3c.github.io/ruby-t2s-req/
05:39:24 [xfq]
florian: there is this document from Murata-san ^
05:39:31 [xfq]
... ruby for pronunciation
05:39:39 [xfq]
... or ruby for alternate pronunciation
05:39:45 [xfq]
... or various cases
05:39:52 [xfq]
... ruby is not only used for Japanese
05:40:06 [xfq]
... I hink the Chinese uses of ruby are actually pretty similar
05:40:17 [xfq]
... even though the examples are Japanese
05:40:22 [florian]
http://yacob.org/ethio-ruby/
05:40:24 [xfq]
... the same logic applies to Chinese
05:40:45 [xfq]
... for this style ^
05:40:57 [xfq]
... I have no idea what tts engine is supposed to do with it
05:41:09 [xfq]
... maybe it's fitting into one of categories by Murata-san
05:41:16 [xfq]
... but quite possibly not
05:41:54 [xfq]
... from the problem I suspect it might take the form of an HTML attribute
05:42:17 [xfq]
... it would be interesting to ask people who knows Zaima
05:42:23 [xfq]
... I don't have the answer
05:42:39 [xfq]
... I tried to mail the editor of that document but my email bounced
05:42:50 [florian]
s/I suspect it might/I suspect a solution might
05:43:15 [florian]
s/HTML attribute/HTML attribute to categorize the type of ruby, which helps TTS engines know what to do with it
05:43:41 [xfq]
action: xfq to read Murata-san's ruby-t2s-req and reqs in Chinese and Zaima see what we're going to do
05:43:43 [gb]
Created -> action #54 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/54
05:44:24 [xfq]
florian: similarly, if there are users of ruby other than @@
05:44:24 [xfq]
https://github.com/w3c/adapt/issues/240
05:44:25 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/adapt/issues/240 -> Issue 240 Could we build symbolic annotations with existing Web standards? (by DuncanMacWeb) [i18n-tracker]
05:44:45 [florian]
s/other than @@/other than the typical CJK uses, and Zaima
05:45:20 [xfq]
Topic: pending issues
05:46:19 [xfq]
fantasai: we have a lot of text spacing stuff
05:46:30 [xfq]
... we have an open discussion about what's the best default
05:46:37 [xfq]
... that's a largely a compat question
05:47:36 [xfq]
... text specing is being implenented currently in I believe Blink and WebKit
05:47:46 [xfq]
... engineers are working on it
05:48:08 [xfq]
... there are some of the discussions you alluded to i18n is probably aware of
05:48:22 [xfq]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9479
05:48:22 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9479 -> Issue 9479 [css-text] Extra spacing between ideographs and non-fullwidth punctuation/symbols (by xfq) [css-text-4] [i18n-tracker] [i18n-jlreq] [i18n-clreq]
05:48:31 [xfq]
florian: thanks for opening it
05:48:35 [fantasai]
s/... there are/florian: there are
05:48:47 [xfq]
... because implementions are ongoing
05:48:58 [xfq]
... this one would be good to put in a tight loop
05:49:10 [xfq]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9501
05:49:10 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9501 -> Issue 9501 [css-text] The definition of ideographs includes punctuation marks (by xfq) [css-text-4] [i18n-tracker] [i18n-clreq] [Agenda+ i18n]
05:49:15 [xfq]
florian: also this one
05:50:02 [xfq]
florian: we have a PR
05:50:03 [xfq]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/pull/9503
05:50:32 [fantasai]
scribe+
05:50:36 [fantasai]
xfq: fixes issue I raised
05:50:51 [fantasai]
... wrt katakana, I think Atsushi wrote an email to the jltf
05:51:02 [xfq]
s/katakana/kana
05:51:08 [fantasai]
atsushi: chatted with Kida-san, but couldn't reach a formal conclusion so Kida-san and I would want to hear from jlreq
05:51:24 [fantasai]
... there was some discussion about halfwidth kana and horizontal bar
05:51:30 [fantasai]
... but we are not sure for the final answer
05:52:33 [xfq]
agenda?
05:53:46 [xfq]
fantasai: should we be picking a different time if this is not working very well for r12a and Addison?
05:54:03 [xfq]
florian: also for you
05:54:06 [atsushi]
+1 for time slot
05:54:59 [xfq]
fantasai: what about the slot after the normal i18n call?
05:55:33 [xfq]
atsushi: I have TTWG call
05:55:44 [xfq]
fantasai: what about the slot before the i18n call?
05:55:48 [xfq]
florian: works for me
05:56:03 [xfq]
fantasai: will be uncomfortable for Addison
05:57:38 [xfq]
fantasai: the i18n slot, but for Wed?
05:57:46 [xfq]
xfq: works for me
05:58:30 [xfq]
action: work out new time slot for i18n/CSS call
05:58:40 [xfq]
action: xfq to work out new time slot for i18n/CSS call
05:58:40 [gb]
Created -> action #55 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/55
05:59:29 [xfq]
rrsagent, make minutes
05:59:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/25-i18n-minutes.html xfq
06:00:38 [xfq]
rrsagent, make minutes
06:00:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/25-i18n-minutes.html xfq
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