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16:55:05 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/10/19-aria-irc
16:55:05 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:55:06 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), spectranaut_
16:55:10 <spectranaut_> meeting: ARIA WG
16:55:14 <spectranaut_> chair: ValerieYoung
16:55:19 <spectranaut_> agendabot, find agenda
16:55:19 <agendabot> spectranaut_, OK. This may take a minute...
16:55:20 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/ecffaf8b-8aa7-4acc-b238-6088a86cf12f/20231019T130000/
16:55:20 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:55:20 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/mzsdx25n
16:55:20 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://tinyurl.com/23kszfj5
16:55:22 <agendabot> agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/ARIA-WPT
16:55:25 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
16:55:28 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Can we remove this standing issue: Discussion tracking for ARIA Notification proposal https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1957
16:55:31 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Consider allowing combobox to open menus https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2050
16:55:34 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Requesting changes to new implementation-blocked merging process https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2055
16:55:37 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Update from PR #1018 for nameFrom: heading https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1860
16:55:40 <agendabot> agenda+ -> associationlist and related roles have tediously long names https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1662
16:55:43 <agendabot> agenda+ -> describe grouping (and naming of the group) for exclusive accordions <details name> https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/509
16:55:46 <agendabot> agenda+ -> "Radio" role exemption from required context https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2058
16:55:49 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Title should not contribute to accName for generic elements https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/506
16:55:52 <agendabot> agenda+ -> ARIAMixin has many integer attributes with string types and uses DOMString? incorrectly https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1110
16:56:01 <spectranaut_> agenda?
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17:00:28 <Francis_Storr> present+
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17:02:54 <dmontalvo> scribe: dmontalvo
17:02:57 <dmontalvo> zakim, take up next
17:02:57 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/mzsdx25n -- taken up [from agendabot]
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17:03:06 <giacomo-petri> present+
17:03:28 <dmontalvo> Valerie: From James Craig about computed role
17:04:23 <dmontalvo> JC: We made a change that host language may be account for these reserved roles with the intention of allowing testing things like computed role for HTML video. It will return HTML-Video. But that oculd only bve returned by the implementation
17:04:36 <dmontalvo> ... This is for Scott or someone who can write a PR to icorporate that
17:04:55 <dmontalvo> Valerie: Is it the idea to add a computed role?
17:05:00 <dmontalvo> JC: Yes, mainly for testability
17:05:13 <dmontalvo> Scott: We already have such thing, we just don't have this example
17:05:25 <dmontalvo> JC: There is a handful of ones that don't currently fit well
17:05:52 <Rahim> present+
17:05:57 <dmontalvo> Valerie: ARIA 2065 -- I think this issue should just be some more clarification on the tree item role description
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17:06:43 <dmontalvo> Matt; I think it's probably that people want to deal with specifying the level in nested nodes
17:07:26 <dmontalvo> Stephan: I don't understand the issue. You have to use the group but the group cannot change the level. If you want to change the level you'd put the level in the treeitem
17:07:56 <dmontalvo> Matt: It's not a problem, just an interesting question. I think this needs agenda. It's a big mapping issue
17:08:00 <dmontalvo> Valerie: Added agenda
17:08:11 <dmontalvo> Valerie: ARIA 1064
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17:08:51 <dmontalvo> JC: There is also a related one. We need role computation algorithm
17:08:57 <StefanS> present+
17:09:25 <dmontalvo> ... For some rule if it does not have a name it invalidates some other rules. There are conflicting rules and it's not clear which takes precedence
17:09:32 <dmontalvo> Valerie: Sounds like a larger iwssue
17:09:57 <dmontalvo> s/iwssue/issue/
17:10:12 <dmontalvo> Valerie: ACCName 211
17:10:45 <dmontalvo> Scott: We talked about this in the editor's meeting as well
17:11:08 <dmontalvo> Valerie: Was someone assigned specifically. to remove details?
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17:11:40 <Matt_King> present+
17:11:40 <dmontalvo> Scott: This should not be in details either. The hidden part is a known issue. The unambiguity is not
17:12:08 <dmontalvo> JC: Not clear what needs to be hidden. Conflicts with our most recent discussions
17:12:27 <dmontalvo> Valerie: I'll add agenda, can't remember what the solution was
17:12:33 <dmontalvo> JC: There isn't one
17:13:16 <dmontalvo> JC: It's possible we may want to add aria-hidden project if there's not one already
17:13:23 <dmontalvo> Valerie: I hear you
17:13:33 <dmontalvo> Valerie: ACCName 210
17:13:43 <dmontalvo> s/ACCName/AccName/g
17:14:09 <dmontalvo> JC: I assigned it to myself, feel free to milestone  itit
17:14:18 <dmontalvo> Valerie: AccName 209
17:14:40 <dmontalvo> ... It's failing in all implementations. All agree that the spec is ambiguous in the opposite way that I interpreted
17:14:51 <dmontalvo> Valerie: Maybe someone from AccName should read it. Bryan?
17:14:54 <scotto> present+
17:14:56 <dmontalvo> Bryan: Yes, I will
17:15:18 <dmontalvo> JC: Maybe the implementations are what the spec intended. If Bryan agrees we can make an editorial changes
17:15:26 <dmontalvo> Bryan: Can you clarify on the GitHub issue?
17:15:35 <dmontalvo> Valerie: I'll add a comment and I'll mention you
17:16:08 <dmontalvo> Valerie: A bunch of Core-AAM editorial issues that we don't need to discuss here. Thanks James for raising these
17:16:31 <dmontalvo> zakim, take up next
17:16:31 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://tinyurl.com/23kszfj5 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:17:27 <dmontalvo> Valerie: A new definition for focusable in ARIA. Mario added this.
17:18:13 <dmontalvo> Mario: A short entry for the concept of focusable
17:18:35 <dmontalvo> ... Just to explain what it is and with a link to the relevant HTML
17:19:15 <dmontalvo> Valerie: Do you want reviewrs, Scott?
17:19:33 <dmontalvo> Scott: I think it's probably premature, I just did the work, not ready to merge
17:19:46 <dmontalvo> JC: Feel free to add me
17:20:02 <dmontalvo> Valerie: Even so, you can review
17:20:30 <dmontalvo> Valerie: A couple of updates to Core-AAM from a new contributor
17:20:42 <dmontalvo> ... We should get reviewers
17:21:05 <dmontalvo> Valerie: Also on Core-AAM, aria-haspopup mappings. I can review, we need another person
17:21:24 <dmontalvo> Francis: I can do it
17:21:36 <dmontalvo> JC: You can add me as well
17:22:02 <dmontalvo> Daniel: I'll double check that you're on the right team Francis
17:22:12 <dmontalvo> Valerie: Core-AAM @@@ Notifications
17:22:28 <dmontalvo> JC: This has been wrong for at least three years
17:23:28 <dmontalvo> Valerie: Rahim fixed to the wrong reference from text alternative to alternative text
17:23:46 <dmontalvo> JC: Authors should not be using such definitive terms, especially in an evergreen spec
17:23:58 <dmontalvo> Matt: But the language has to be definitive at the time it's written
17:24:11 <dmontalvo> ... IF there is not mapping at the time, what would have you written?
17:24:19 <dmontalvo> JC: I'd just left it blank
17:24:39 <dmontalvo> ... Even TBD is better than no mapping
17:25:05 <dmontalvo> Matt: No mapping I think is really useful information
17:26:34 <dmontalvo> JC: I don't think Geko and Chrome engineers look atCore-AAM to figure out what APIs there are in the platform, but just to resolve ambiguities.
17:27:03 <dmontalvo> Valerie: If there is a change on the language of these specs, they are just documenting the APIs and we need to talk about that. Can you open an issue?
17:27:49 <dmontalvo> Daniel: I could take a look
17:28:04 <dmontalvo> zakim, take up next
17:28:04 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/ARIA-WPT -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:28:42 <dmontalvo> JC: Do you think it's useful to include Core-AAM manuals?
17:29:00 <dmontalvo> JC: I pulled the Core-AAM label out of this, it's only two issues without that label
17:29:11 <dmontalvo> ... IF you are able to review these two, I think these are now ready to go
17:29:56 <dmontalvo> ... This is all what remains from P1
17:30:41 <dmontalvo> zakim, take up next
17:30:41 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:30:57 <dmontalvo> Valerie: Anything right now?
17:31:14 <dmontalvo> ... Let's keep in mind that rest of agenda may end up as Deep Dive
17:32:02 <dmontalvo> JC: One of the tasks for next year INterop project is that we need an accessibility object associated. It may be worthy to discuss which these would be appart from the obvious ones
17:32:18 <dmontalvo> ... This could also happen offline
17:33:20 <dmontalvo> ... For example, why do you need to have a group if there is already an aria-level? Is there a stack pointer that takes care of nested levels?
17:33:28 <dmontalvo> ... Rahim and I can talk about it
17:33:37 <dmontalvo> zakim, take up next
17:33:37 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> Can we remove this standing issue: Discussion tracking for ARIA Notification proposal https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1957 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:34:14 <dmontalvo> Valerie: I wonder what next steps are for the aria-notifications proposal
17:34:57 <dmontalvo> ... We have now a dedicated git repo but I don't see what has been done
17:35:15 <dmontalvo> Scott: I'm not driving this. As it's not part or ARIA any more, I don't think there is much I can do
17:35:19 <dmontalvo> zakim, take up next
17:35:19 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> Consider allowing combobox to open menus https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2050 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:35:44 <dmontalvo> Valerie: ARIA 2050
17:36:58 <dmontalvo> Scott: Thiss has been brought up because people they have what initially aperas like a list of options. Then they perform actions like search or the like. There''s a lot going on about the OpenUI select proposal. The intent was to create a new select element. The current one has a lot of parsing issues that don''t allow for these requirements
17:37:14 <dmontalvo> ... People generally want to create menus out of selects
17:37:22 <dmontalvo> ... They don't understand why this cannot be currently done
17:38:19 <dmontalvo> ... Sometimes that gets mapped to menuitem, others to check boxes. Different ATs treat these differently
17:38:48 <dmontalvo> ... Some people I tested it with did not notice the difference but they were able to discern the options they needed to select from
17:39:09 <dmontalvo> ... Is there a reason that combo boxes don't allow for menu pop-ups?
17:39:33 <dmontalvo> Matt: I remember specific individuals that didn't like the list of pop-ups that we originally proposed in 1.1
17:39:55 <dmontalvo> ... Originally it was just edit field and list box
17:40:01 <jcraig> +q
17:41:08 <dmontalvo> ... There was a lot of pressure to keep the list of allowed things as small as we possibly could
17:41:12 <jcraig> q+ to mention this is related to the platform-specific presentation issue
17:41:28 <dmontalvo> ... I am not sure how you would express multi values in a multi value container
17:41:58 <spectranaut_> q?
17:42:02 <scotto> q+
17:42:06 <dmontalvo> ... There are a few things mixed together in this issue. IF it was just the title, that wouldn't be a problem since it would be faitly straightforward
17:42:13 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/467
17:42:30 <dmontalvo> JC: This is related to another HTML-AAM issue
17:43:02 <dmontalvo> ... We don't actually expose the default select as list box but as a pop-up button
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17:43:32 <jcraig> ack me
17:43:32 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to mention this is related to the platform-specific presentation issue
17:43:39 <dmontalvo> ... We did not discuss this on TPAC as I was not sure how to progress on this, we can join these two issues
17:44:14 <dmontalvo> Scott: I am not particularly looking for shortcomings. People seem to like how it's done in mac OS
17:44:39 <dmontalvo> ... The platforms went different ways for the same control, interoperability is difficult
17:44:59 <dmontalvo> JC: I think we can get clsoed to a point where it's usable
17:45:22 <dmontalvo> ... Permissiveness to some degree would help ifwe want shortcomings.
17:45:23 <spectranaut_> ack scotto
17:46:07 <dmontalvo> Scott: To Matt's comments, I want to verify that what you said in the other issue is true for menuitem checkbox
17:46:35 <dmontalvo> Matt: Go to notepad andd open format and then select wordwrap
17:46:44 <dmontalvo> ... I have been noticing more inconsistency lately
17:47:17 <dmontalvo> ... If you press escape that's undo. If there is a menu that doesn't close, I am not sure if the escape undoes what I did or just closes the menu
17:47:57 <dmontalvo> JC: It is expected on the mac that it both clloses it and it cancels whatever you did in the menu. Because this is not standard in all web components, that's not consistent
17:48:17 <dmontalvo> Matt: Sometimes I don't always remember
17:48:31 <dmontalvo> JC: It is a much higher cognitive load for screen reader users
17:49:11 <dmontalvo> Mario: The menus are for use the same as Matt said. I think it's the same in all desktop applications, why should it be totally different on the Web?
17:49:43 <dmontalvo> JC: Because attention to detail is more difficult. People who use frameworks rewrite their functionality
17:49:58 <dmontalvo> Scott: Or this is a designer's decission
17:50:11 <dmontalvo> Matt: Sometimes space checks but doesn't close and then Enter checks and closes
17:50:39 <siri> Space Enter	Activates menu item, causing action to be executed, e.g., bold text, change font. Escape	 Closes submenu. Moves focus to parent menubar item.
17:51:06 <giacomo-petri> +q
17:51:08 <dmontalvo> ... I do understand from a design perspective that pressing \enter checks and closes. You could not press Enter to close because that would uncheck it
17:51:18 <dmontalvo> Scott: That's a whole other issue
17:51:41 <dmontalvo> JC: You do what you click and then it closes. That comes from the 80s or 90s
17:52:52 <dmontalvo> Scott: Do we want to allow combo boxes to open menus? Do we want to make issues related to this subtopics?
17:53:01 <jcraig> s/That comes from the 80s or 90s/That has been an established UI pattern since the early 1980s/
17:53:12 <dmontalvo> Matt: Not sure if that should include multiselect menus
17:53:47 <jcraig> s/You do what you click and then it closes/Menus have always operated on what was clicked and then close/
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17:53:58 <dmontalvo> Scott: That's if we can identify a goupr as being multiselectable
17:54:25 <dmontalvo> Matt: I am happy to own it and go for it as long as it is constrained to what's currently in the title
17:54:41 <dmontalvo> Valerie: I'm assigning Matt to this issue
17:54:49 <dmontalvo> Scot: I'll create a separate issue based on discussion
17:55:02 <dmontalvo> zakim, take up next
17:55:02 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, dmontalvo
17:55:16 <dmontalvo> q?
17:56:13 <dmontalvo> Matt: We should put 2024 unless theer are some implementation issues
17:56:30 <spectranaut_> ack giacomo-petri
17:56:53 <giacomo-petri> https://react.fluentui.dev/?path=/docs/components-combobox--default#multiselect and https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/apg/patterns/menubar/examples/menubar-editor/
17:57:00 <dmontalvo> Giacommo: These complex scenarios even if we manage them in a proper way from a semantic perspective, they might be quite challenging for keyboard users to understand how to operate with the widget
17:57:45 <dmontalvo> ... You don't know if the menu is closed, if there's multiple options, etc
17:58:06 <dmontalvo> ack gia
17:58:22 <dmontalvo> Scott: There are menuitem check boxes, they have the same hints from screen readers
17:58:35 <dmontalvo> Giacommo: Semantically they are, visually they might be challenging
17:58:50 <dmontalvo> Matt: We do have keyboard guidance
17:59:36 <dmontalvo> ... The choice in the toolbar we had to go with menuitemradio. It works , but it works differently than regular radios. They don't change automatically to selected when navigating them
18:00:10 <dmontalvo> Scott: This is a broader issue. Sometimes things look differently than how they're exposed and that's OK
18:00:46 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:00:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/10/19-aria-minutes.html dmontalvo
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